Essentials: An end to MADness?

[drothgery]

My thoughts exactly. In this case essentials did nothing that was not already done since PHB2 onward.

Again, there were 4 V-shaped classes in PH1, not 3. And Rangers were by far the least problematic, because many powers could be used with Str or Dex. Strength-primary clerics, Strength-primary Paladins, and Con-primary Warlocks had issues with finding good power choices at all levels initially (though later supplements mostly fixed that) and until some alternate class features appeared had MAD issues with class features as well.

 

[Gort]

You know what else would stop MADness?

3d6 down the line; raise rolls lower than eight to eight, raise one stat of your choosing to sixteen.

(J, the halfling rogue, didn't roll higher than a nine, but got more XP than any other PC.)

What? No it wouldn't. If some classes require more high stats than others, your method still has those classes as less desirable. Your method actually makes it worse, as you're guaranteed only one high stat. Your halfling rogue's rolls are pretty irrelevant if he can still have a 16 dex.

MAD is all about certain classes needing more high stats than others - unless your generation method allows everyone to have a high stat everywhere it will still be an issue.

 

[Shin Okada]

And Warlocks. Not surprisingly, all were from PH1.

Ah, I forgot about Con Warlock.


But anyway, even with PHB, both STR Cleric and Wis Cleric worked just fine, both Str Ranger and Dex Ranger worked just fine, and Cha Warlock worked fine IMHO.

Both Str Paladin and Cha Paladin had some issue as their choice of powers and feats were too narrow. But IMHO it was already solved by Divine Power. Now both Str Paladin and Cha works just fine. Str/Cha paladin works fine, too. Yes, STR heavy Paladin is somewhat more striker-ish. But that does not mean they are ineffective, just different.

For me, Con Warlock seems to need some more help, though.

Anyway, again, while essentials are providing simpler builds, they still need (of benefit from) some secondary ability score. So there is not that much difference from pre-essentials buids.

 

[Howndawg]

But anyway, even with PHB, both STR Cleric and Wis Cleric worked just fine, both Str Ranger and Dex Ranger worked just fine, and Cha Warlock worked fine IMHO.

I will politely disagree with you about the STR cleric. He needed a good STR, obviously, plus benefitted from a good WIS for Healer's Lore and a good CHA for Turn Undead.

The warpriest just needs a good WIS and CON. This frees up points which I can put into STR for access to scale and plate, DEX for a good init bonus, INT for help with skills, or CHA for good riders on implement powers if I choose to take them. I have a bit more freedom.

 

[Shin Okada]

The warpriest just needs a good WIS and CON. This frees up points which I can put into STR for access to scale and plate, DEX for a good init bonus, INT for help with skills, or CHA for good riders on implement powers if I choose to take them. I have a bit more freedom.

I actually played Str human cleric for a while, before the release of Divine Power IIRC. And he was strong enough. All he needed were maxed-out strength and descent Con. With his greatspear and Scale Armor, he was perfectly fine as a weapon wielding cleric. All the other ability scores were not so important. His healing powers healed a few less hit points when comparing to those of Wis clerics. But he did provide more chance for his comrades to spend healing surges in combat, thanks to powers such as Healing Strike and Strengthen the Faithful. He hits for sure when needed, thanks to maxed-out strength, +3 proficiency weapon, and another +1 bonus from fighter multiclass feat when really needed. He did not use any implement powers at all, including Turn Undead. He used his Channel Divinity for Righteous Rage of Tempus. I remember he did not even have a magic holy symbol for a long time.

Actually, when he stepped up to paragon level, Str build helped him to wear plate armor and also take Armor Specialization. So I say maybe Str-based cleric has some upper-hand as a pure-weapon-wielding cleric. While essential clerics can become a versatile cleric only with high Wis, if he picks up some powers from PHB and Divine Power.

But anyway, even before Essentials, both Str-based cleric and Wis-based cleric were just fine as they were.

 

[drothgery]

But anyway, even before Essentials, both Str-based cleric and Wis-based cleric were just fine as they were.

There were no Str-based cleric paragon paths in PH1, and are only 2 in Divine Power.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The only bad ting was the lack of all but one strength focused cleric PP...

but in fact, only warlock and paladin were a little bit problematic madness wise...
ranger and clerics did well...

 

[Shin Okada]

There were no Str-based cleric paragon paths in PH1, and are only 2 in Divine Power.

Yeah. But there were multiclass feats for strength-based classes from the beginning. And those feats are useful for str-based clerics and many of strength-based paragon paths work just fine for weapon-wielding clerics.

Edit: And, at least there was 1 half-strength based paragon path in PH1, and there were 2 purely Str based cleric paragon paths in Divine Power. Now HotFL made one Wis-based Paragon Path which only warpriest can take. Is that such an improvement in regard to MAD problem?

 

[Jack Colby]

You know what else would stop MADness?

3d6 down the line; raise rolls lower than eight to eight, raise one stat of your choosing to sixteen.

I agree, people really need to look into other options for stat generation and not be slaves to the ones handed down from on high when it's clear they aren't working as well as they should.

That said, good on WotC if they are trying to eliminate the MAD problem. The game shouldn't have even made it past playtesting with that kind of thing intact.

 

[Lord Ernie]

Yeah, no. Random stat generation does not solve the MAD problem. Some classes are MAD because they not only require good scores in several abilities to begin with, they also need to boost too many different stats at every opportunity.

Add to that that randomly rolling for stats is inherently unfair no matter how you mitigate bad rolls, creates in-party imbalances which makes it much harder to gauge the correct threat level for encounters, and more often than not ends you with worse stats than you would've ended up with had you picked point-buy or an array...

What does fix MAD is properly designed classes. Using one main attack stat with secondaries (V-shaped), rather than multiple main attack stats with one common secondary (A-shaped) is a good start: it widens power selection - which increases average quality of each individual build.

Yeah. But there were multiclass feats for strength-based classes from the beginning. And those feats are useful for str-based clerics and many of strength-based paragon paths work just fine for weapon-wielding clerics.

Edit: And, at least there was 1 half-strength based paragon path in PH1, and there were 2 purely Str based cleric paragon paths in Divine Power. Now HotFL made one Wis-based Paragon Path which only warpriest can take. Is that such an improvement in regard to MAD problem?

Eh. I do not consider 'you can MC to get a decent PP and/or actually get a useful daily' to be an answer. It just shows the inherent problems with a V-shaped class: you need more powers and PP's to support it, because they are all inherently incompatible.

Also, I just counted the PP's in the compendium: there are currently 4 strength-based PP's, and only one of those is open to all clerics. Hammer of Moradin requires worshipping him (duh), Stone Keepers must be dwarves, Furious Blitzers must be Half-Orcs (wtf?). Battle Chaplain has no requirements, and it's good quality stuff, but it's one PP. One.

I'm not counting the original Warpriest here, because while it may rely on at-will melee attacks and it features support battle clerics, its powers are useless without an attack-worthy wisdom score. Warpriest is a balanced cleric path, where the character uses wisdom and strength equally.

As a sidenote, now I wanna play an Essentials Warpriest with the Warpriest PP, not just because I can be a Warpriest/Warpriest (do I then get to double-heal my heal, or something? ), but also because it sounds like a pretty vicious combination mechanically.