Examples of Power Creep?

[Navar]

While reading this thread This Thread about repeating the mistakes of 2e, I wonder if anyone can provide an actual example of Power creep in the game. Mainly focusing on the complete book and the Races of X books. (but any clear examples will do) I am one who feels all the talk about "Power creep" is just people being negative.

(Oh and I do feel that Options are powerful, so that is not a good argument)

Edit: The way I define power creep and how I mean it for this thread:

1) Is there a class that has come out that has been more powerful than a) one in the 3.5 Phb, b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?

2) Is there a race that has come out that has been more powerful than one in the 3.5 Phb? (taking ECL into account)

3) Is there a PrC that has come out that has been more powerful than a) a straight class in the 3.5 Phb, or b) a multiclass combo using classes and or PrCs the 3.5 PhB and DmG?

4) Is there a feat that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

5) Is there a spell that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

6) Is there a Magic item that has come out that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

7) Is there a combonation of any of the above that makes a character more powerful than the best build of the most powerful class/multiclass using the core 3.5 books?

 

[MerricB]

When I think of Power Creep, I think of increased power over a number of areas - not just in one or two prestige classes or feats that they've made a mistake on.

The vast majority of 3.5e supplemental material has been balanced (or underpowered).

Cheers!

 

[shilsen]

I agree with MerricB. I haven't seen power creep as a trend in 3.5e. What has happened, unsurprisingly, is that as more books are released, a PrC in one combined with a second PrC in another, if used in conjunction with a feat in a third, combined with a spell in a fourth ... (you get the idea) can lead to somethign unbalanced. It's not that there is any power creep per se, but rather that the variety of new material can sometimes provide overly powerful combinations. That, I think, is a necessary evil if one is to have supplementary books and use them all.

 

[Navar]

I agree with you 100% Shilsen and Merric, but the early voting seems to indicate a lot of people disagree. However those people are either unable or unwilling to site an example.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I have not seen much power creep.

Classes and prestige classes I do not like, yes, unbalanced, no.

They seem to be making a serious attempt to keep the creep asleep.

The Auld Grump

 

[Endur]

Power Creep is prevalent in almost all game systems. 3.5e is no exception.

Typically, the easiest places to find power creep are in new rules. i.e. An existing rule has been tested many times, but a new rule might have gone through little or no testing.

The 3.5 version of Power Attack, while vastly more powerful than the 3.0 version, is not power creep in my opinion. Its simply changing the power level of the rule.

Power Creep might be, however, the abundance of feats and PRCs we now have. In original 3.0, a fighter could only have 3 feats to power up his sword (weapon focus, weapon specialization, and improved critical). Now there are numerous feats available (archers have even more feats available). Every book seems to add a new feat. Take feats from all of the books and you can get a very specialized character. Likewise, PRCs-- a single PRC by itself may be balanced, but when you combine several to get the best benefits of each, you end up with an unbalanced character that was never playtested.

I think the core 3.5 rules are fairly well balanced, and any given book is likely pretty well balanced with the core rules, but once you combine multiple splat books you can end up with unbalanced combinations.

Examples:

Goliath Barbarian with racial substitution levels and Frenzied Berserker PRC or Berserker PRC from Dieties & Demigods with several nifty feats from Complete Warrior, Races of Stone, and other sources to enhance rage and damage

other combos are possible.

 

[Michael Tree]

I completely agree with Shil.

I also think that there are a lot of things that look like they're overly powerful in 3.5 which aren't in practice. Remember the huge uproar about the Mystic Theurge?

And there are the occasional badly designed feat, spell, or prestige class, but I don't see it as an orderly progression of increasing power. It's more that there's the occasional mistake or aberration in an otherwise balanced game.

 

[molonel]

I think the question should be clarified. Has power creep taken place in the 3.5 core rules, or as a result of 3.5 supplements?

To the first question, I would say no.

The second question, I would say yes, for the reasons cited above. The worst imbalances come with mixing and matching unbalanced feats and prestige classes from different books and materials which were not designed with each other in mind.

 

[Navar]

Examples:

Goliath Barbarian with racial substitution levels and Frenzied Berserker PRC or Berserker PRC from Dieties & Demigods with several nifty feats from Complete Warrior, Races of Stone, and other sources to enhance rage and damage

The problem here is the Goliath is going to be down 1 hit die (and the con bonus), 1 level for feats, 1 level for stat increases, 1 point of BAB, 1 level of class features, and 1 level of Saves (I don't think that the skill points make him a better killer with this build) So with all of those disadvantages he would appear to balance other PCs of his CL (all of this is because the Goliath is a ECL +1 race)

 

[the Jester]

There's a little power creep, but not much. As examples, I'll cite things like the Sudden Metamagic feats, Divine Metamagic, psionics (the ability to choose your energy type on all your offensive powers at the time you manifest them is significant imho), all the new dual-caster advancement/multiclassing synergy prestige classes.

I don't think many of these things are overpowered (though I do think that of sudden metamagic and divine metamagic if you don't rule that you need the initial metamagic feat to use it via divine metamagic). However, they increase the power level from that of a similar-themed character in the core rules. For instance, a straight druid 10/bard 10 will be significantly inferior to a druid5/bard 5/fochulcan lyrist 10.