D&D General Gish Thoughts

[Voadam]

This is how multi-classing used to work. In 1e (where the Gish concept comes from), you earned experience in both (or all three) of your classes at the same time. But this worked because experience kept your progression slower, since the only way to level was through earning experience points, and thus you levelled at approximately half (or a third) the speed of single-classed characters (I'm aware that due to the way experience points scaled, there is some variability). There were also level limits imposed on most classes available to multi-class, since it was an option for non-humans only.

How do you make that work in 5e, where experience points are not used at many tables, and where players expect to level at the same rate? Obviously, if your fighter/wizard can be level 5 in both classes in the same amount of play it takes my fighter to be level 5, that's unfair and unbalanced. So how do you fix it?

One obvious solution would be to simply do 5e multi-classing, and switch classes every time you level (e.g. go fighter 1->wizard 1->fighter 2->wizard 2->fighter 3 and so on). But I get the sense that this would be unsatisfying for most players who post about playing a Gish, even though it would produce pretty much the same mechanical result as 1e multi-classing.

Or I suppose if doing milestone levelling, the Gish could just level half as often, but level both classes at the same time.

In AD&D it was closer to doubling xp cost each level so if you were multiclassed you would usually be around only one level behind where you would be otherwise, not half the levels. Once you got past the first level 2 advancement for non multiclassed ones everyone in practice was advancing a new level at roughly the same time.

Also you kind of describe it backwards for multiclassing and level limits. Demihumans who can multiclass have level limits on most every class whether they multiclass or not. Multiclassing is not the reason for the level limits being demihuman is.

In 3.5 the Unearthed Arcana Gestalt option to advance in two levels at the same time was fairly similar to AD&D multiclassing. It was mostly setup as a campaign option to make PCs more broadly powerful. Action Economy was a big limiting factor to the power increase.

To do a 5e one and be balanced against single classed characters I would suggest something like a 3.5 level adjustment, so you could be a caster with both wizard and cleric spells and cleric armor and HD, but you would be a level lower than a straight cleric and have lower hp and lower top spells every other level and later ASIs and proficiency bonus advancements. A potentially interesting tradeoff or power options.

 

[Clint_L]

In AD&D it was closer to doubling xp cost each level so if you were multiclassed you would usually be around only one level behind where you would be otherwise, not half the levels. Once you got past the first level 2 advancement for non multiclassed ones everyone in practice was advancing a new level at roughly the same time.

No, not at all. You are right that exp scales (as I acknowledged), but that is true for the multi-classed levels, as well. You wouldn't be half level, but you would typically be more than 1 level behind.

Also you kind of describe it backwards for multiclassing and level limits. Demihumans who can multiclass have level limits on most every class whether they multiclass or not. Multiclassing is not the reason for the level limits being demihuman is.

I didn't claim that, so /shrug? Read my post again. I played 1e for almost a decade - I am well aware of how it works.

 

[TwoSix]

To do a 5e one and be balanced against single classed characters I would suggest something like a 3.5 level adjustment, so you could be a caster with both wizard and cleric spells and cleric armor and HD, but you would be a level lower than a straight cleric and have lower hp and lower top spells every other level and later ASIs and proficiency bonus advancements. A potentially interesting tradeoff or power options.

I've been contemplating a 5e gestalt game where you either a) pick 2 classes or b) pick 1 class and also get a feat every level. That feels roughly even to me, at least up to level 9-10. (I doubt the game would go beyond that.)

 

[Baron Opal II]

Hmmm...that seems very unbalanced to me - in effect, you could be either a level 20 fighter, or a level 18 fighter/level 18 wizard. I know which I would choose. Is an extra attack and ability score improvement/feat really comparable to 18 levels of wizard? Do any of your players choose single class, if the campaign goes past level 5 or so?

Yes, although our games tend to top out at 12th level. My "Epic level" rules take over then. A 12th level fighter has three attacks, sometimes four, and a 9/9+ fighter/magician has two attacks plus up to 5th level spells. The damage output is equivalent.

Right now we have... something like Ftr 10, Pal 10, Wiz 10, Wiz/Rog 8/8, Rng 10, Clr/Rog 8/8. Most of the time people pick single classes.

 

[Shardstone]

This is the Pendragon, the gish class I made and am currently playtesting. I wanted to play off the idea of a King Arthur, Magic Knight-type vibe, and tie in cantrips and the weapon-cantrips as the core tech for it. Check it out and let me know what y'all think in regards to the thread's ideas so far.

 

[Voadam]

No, not at all. You are right that exp scales (as I acknowledged), but that is true for the multi-classed levels, as well. You wouldn't be half level, but you would typically be more than 1 level behind.

There are some edge places in the charts where it is not exactly half and top levels it becomes a flat xp per further level but for most it is about double to go up a level.

Say you get 100,000 xp for your fighter or for your fighter/MU. Either 100K in fighter or 50K in fighter and 50K in MU.

You get a level 7 straight fighter or a multiclassed level 6 fighter. One level fighter difference.

Say you get 50,000 xp for the character, you get either a straight fighter 6 or a multiclassed fighter 5. One level fighter difference.

Say you get 25,000 xp for character, you get a straight fighter 5 or a multiclassed fighter 4. One level fighter difference.

Edge cases would be at 16,002-18,000 xp half would be no level difference and at 125,001-139,999 half would be two levels difference.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

No, not at all. You are right that exp scales (as I acknowledged), but that is true for the multi-classed levels, as well. You wouldn't be half level, but you would typically be more than 1 level behind.

Very seldom.
I played a Fighter/Thief multiclass in 1E and I was never more than one level behind. When the single-class characters were level 8, my character would be 7/7, 8/7, or 8/8. Never 6/7 or 6/6.
Of course, the single-class characters varied as well. The XP for a level 8 cleric put a thief to level 10 (or something like that), but the multi-class was never more than one level behind the lowest single-class.

 

[Corinnguard]

This is how multi-classing used to work. In 1e (where the Gish concept comes from), you earned experience in both (or all three) of your classes at the same time. But this worked because experience kept your progression slower, since the only way to level was through earning experience points, and thus you levelled at approximately half (or a third) the speed of single-classed characters (I'm aware that due to the way experience points scaled, there is some variability). There were also level limits imposed on most classes available to multi-class, since it was an option for non-humans only.

How do you make that work in 5e, where experience points are not used at many tables, and where players expect to level at the same rate? Obviously, if your fighter/wizard can be level 5 in both classes in the same amount of play it takes my fighter to be level 5, that's unfair and unbalanced. So how do you fix it?

One obvious solution would be to simply do 5e multi-classing, and switch classes every time you level (e.g. go fighter 1->wizard 1->fighter 2->wizard 2->fighter 3 and so on). But I get the sense that this would be unsatisfying for most players who post about playing a Gish, even though it would produce pretty much the same mechanical result as 1e multi-classing.

Or I suppose if doing milestone levelling, the Gish could just level half as often, but level both classes at the same time.

3e's Unearthed Arcana had rules on how to create gestalt characters. Pages 72-76.

Gestalt Characters

In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap.

It would be neat if the rules for creating Gestalt characters could be adapted for 5e. Then we could create different kinds of Gish.

 

[Laurefindel]

3e's Unearthed Arcana had rules on how to create gestalt characters. Pages 72-76.

Gestalt Characters

In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap.

It would be neat if the rules for creating Gestalt characters could be adapted for 5e. Then we could create different kinds of Gish.

Wasn’t there a gestalt option in the DMG? As for leveling, I’d simply divide the character’s XP by the number of classes it got, which bring the gestalt PC 1-3 levels behind for most of their adventuring career