Going back to 3.5... Any ideas to 4e-ify it?

[The_Gneech]

So all you need to do to have a "budget" approach to 3.5 is look at table 2-6. Each row is a mini-table telling exactly what each CR monster costs for a party of that level. That's pretty easy!

Kind of a hugemongous table, but I see what you mean. I wonder if it would work being broken into categories of, say level 1 - 3, level 4 - 6, etc.

-The Gneech

 

[Angrydad]

My group is pretty good about prestige-classes (usually 1-2, but they complete/nearly complete them before going on) so I'm not too terribly concerned about 1-level dipping.

At best, I hoped to see more "utility feats" taken (like Iron Will) since PCs would have more options to expand out. It would also possibly help some of the more feat-starved classes (paladin, rogue, or sorcerer). It might also eliminate the need to "fighter-dip". The downside is that PCs have access to power faster (at 10th level, they have 5 feats vs. 4), and it does remove a bit of allure of the fighter (whose power would become "a feat every level" roughly)

I'm still on the fence on this one...

Instead of granting more feats as the PCs level up, my fix has been to allow them to select several of the "utility feats" that you're mentioning at 1st level. How many players will select feats like "Stealthy" or "Athletic" unless they're fighters who have enough combat feats to also take some of those flavor types? Rogues might benefit from Stealthy enough to make it worthwhile, but it's still a stretch. I give starting characters 3 bonus feats that must be of this type (DM discretion of course). Also, to make feats like Stealthy more worth the bother, I have those skills the feat gives bonuses to become class skills from that point on.

 

[Voadam]

You could add healing surges into your game in addition to second wind so you get more non cleric out of combat healing.

You could go with the Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press) 20 levels of spellcasting sprinkled with at will useful powers.

You could make some things 1/encounter instead of 1/day. Paladin smite calls out for this to me.

Port over some monster rules, minions, recharge abilities, elite and solo concepts. The DMG templates and improving monsters section looks pretty applicable to 3e stuff.

You could adopt some 4e combat rules that make things go a little smoother such as charging being just a +1 attack bonus without a straight line movement requirement, diagonals being 1/1 movement, etc.

 

[Voadam]

You could collapse down the skill list.

 

[Remathilis]

You could add healing surges into your game in addition to second wind so you get more non cleric out of combat healing.

You could go with the Book of Experimental Might (Malhavoc Press) 20 levels of spellcasting sprinkled with at will useful powers.

You could make some things 1/encounter instead of 1/day. Paladin smite calls out for this to me.

Port over some monster rules, minions, recharge abilities, elite and solo concepts. The DMG templates and improving monsters section looks pretty applicable to 3e stuff.

You could adopt some 4e combat rules that make things go a little smoother such as charging being just a +1 attack bonus without a straight line movement requirement, diagonals being 1/1 movement, etc.

I looked at both Books of Experimental Might; barring a couple of spell-changes, I don't see much need to reinvent the spellcasting system or use dominions/feat domains. Yet.

Turning some of those per-day into per-encounter might be interesting, but I'm afraid of some becoming too powerful (rage or wild-shape, for example).

Minions are a good idea, as is 1:1 diagonals.

Healing surges seem like a bit too much of a hassle, as they would require revamping the whole healing subsystem. Second Wind 1/day (or more, if you take a feat) is good.

I've always pretty much done full hp extended-rests (usually via healing-dumps and resting) so that's no biggie. And with two artificer monocles, I don't worry about field-identifying anymore.

 

[Mercule]

I think getting rid of stat boosting spells and items entirely is a good idea.

I'd go with only allowing a single stat to be boosted at one time. So, you need to choose between bull's strength and bear's endurance. Items like gauntlets of ogre power are suppressed for the duration of a buff spell and multiple buffing items work in a first-in-wins manner.

If they aren't already, set Target to "One willing creature". No fair casting fox's cunning to debuff the ogre.

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Wow. This thread is chock-full with good ideas. Thanks for starting it Rem.

Since folks gave better answers than I could to each of your bullets, I'll just comment on the last one: How to inject 4e "feel" into your 3e game.

I think the "feel" aspect that's most appealing in 4e is the dynamic nature of combats. Because combats last longer (in rounds) but are equal/shorter (in real world time), there seems to be more opportunities for the tide of combat to shift. I'm seeing my players set and re-set defensive positions. In a world where you don't see 150+ damage Power Attack critical hits, you actually get to see more party-based tactics. My experience with high-level 3e play usually equated to 2-3 round fights, with high level magic winning the day (for either side). Funsponge, my brothers, funsponge.

So what to do? Rather than curtail damage, I'd up the hit points of monsters considerably. I'd also take a page out of 4e design and try to get a greater number of (varied) monsters on the table instead of the 3e tendency for one BBEG and a couple schleps. Granted, some 3e DMs have been doing this for a while - more power to them.

If you can get a good mix with 4e feel, you probably have something you can bottle up and sell on the market. I'd love to hear how it turns out.

I'm a self-professed liker of 4e, but the main appeal to me is the simplified - and fun, once again - aspects of DMing (monster creation, mainly). My players are more mixed than I am, and - if I were a player - I suspect I'd probably feel the same.

4e the DM side of the screen, mod-3e the player side = Win.

Good luck!

WP

 

[Spatula]

So what ideas from 4E simplify GMing?

Monster design is stripped down & straight forward. Ditto encounter design. The former is somewhat difficult to port into 3e, as there's no solid baseline for how strong and tough a monster of n CR should be.

The buff/debuff system as it exists in 3e has been removed, including the catalogue of stacking magic item buffs. Which cuts down on bookeeping for PCs and monsters and doesn't bring fights to a halt when dispels are thrown around. It also cuts down on prep time for the PCs heading into an encounter (trying to maximize their buffs) and for the DM preparing encounters. I don't know how you'd even begin to move this into 3e... you'd have to rewrite and rip out spells, items, class abilities...

Perhaps one could steal the 4e-ism of typing buffs by their game source (item, feat, power in 4e) rather than by their in-game explination (dodge, deflection, etc.). That would cut down on some of the ridiculous bonuses you can pile up in 3e, but leave you with the problem that different spells provide different buffs with similar effects. For example, one spell gives a bonus to strength, another spell gives a bonus to hit and damage instead.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Minions are a good idea . . .

How do you implement minions? Obviously, make them go down in a single hit. But do you simply swap in 2 minion creatures where you would normally have 1? (or 3? 4?)

. . . as is 1:1 diagonals.

I'm not fond of 1:1 diagonals. In 4E, with a lot of area effects to track on the battlemat, it makes things a lot easier. But unless you're adding a marking mechanic to your 3E game, 1:1 diagonals remove your defender-types' ability to defend, because bad guys can easily move around them (avoiding AoOs) to get to your spellcasters and other vulnerable party members.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How do you implement minions? Obviously, make them go down in a single hit. But do you simply swap in 2 minion creatures where you would normally have 1? (or 3? 4?)

At higher levels, you want probably more than that. Wulf Ratbane convinced me that at higher levels, it is not uncommon to have "auto-hit" situations. So a level 11 Minion might need two hits and a level 16 Minion 3 hits. (What do you use with "auto-save-failing" spells?)