Great Crossbow

[D.Shaffer]

For a potential future character idea, I'd like to see if we could get the Great Crossbow added to the list of approved weapons. I consider it more of a flavor weapon as I see it as suboptimal compared to a composite longbow or repeating heavy crossbow.

Originally appearing in Races of Stone, p 154.

Great Crossbow
Type: Exotic ranged weapon
Damage: 2d8 Piercing
Critical: 18-20/x2
Range Increment: 120'
Cost: 150 GP
Weight: 14 pounds
Special: Requires a full turn to reload and cannot be fired with one hand.

I'm not sure if this would require a seperate thread, but it wouldnt be worth the changes if the above doesnt go through. I'd also like to propose the Rapid Reload feat be amended to include the Great Crossbow as follows. (Changes in Red)

Rapid Reload [General]
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy, or great).
Prerequisite:Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy or great crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy or great crossbow.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow. A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[Bront]

2d8? shouldn't it be 2d6 or 1d12? And why an 18-20/x2 crit? crossbows are 19-20.

As built, I'd vote a definitive no, for the 2 reasons I've stated above.

 

[Avalon®]

It is shown in the book as stated. Think of it as a bigger crossbow

 

[D.Shaffer]

2d8? shouldn't it be 2d6 or 1d12? And why an 18-20/x2 crit? crossbows are 19-20.

From what I've seen, I think the logic is that since the Heavy Crossbow is a simple weapon, making an Exotic version is worth 2 'steps' in improvement, much like many Exotic weapons are martial weapons with one 'step' of improvement.

So you get 1 step increase as an improvement in damage (From 1d10 up to 2d8) following the weapon size chart, and another 1 step increase as an improvement to the critical chance rate (From 19-20 up to 18-20).

 

[Erekose13]

As built I give it a No as well for the reasons given by Bront. It is better than any other exotic ranged weapon available.

 

[D.Shaffer]

I think you're letting the big damage number get in the way of an accurate comparison. It's a definite improvement over the H. Repeating Crossbow with one shot (One higher damage value then then H. Repeating, One better Crit number), however it's still a full round to reload the thing compared to a full iterative attack with H. repeater.

Even without the higher level reiterative attacks, you can 'reload' the H. repeating crossbow as a free action so long as the case still has ammo in it. Compare this to the Great Crossbow that requires a full turn to reload. Someone armed with the Repeating Heavy can move and shoot without a problem for 5 rounds before needing to reload. Someone with the Great Crossbow will be able to get off 3 shots in the same amount of time (Shoot, Reload, Shoot, Reload, Shoot), and will not be able to move at all while reloading.

Over Time comparison.
5d10 (Avg 27.5) vs. 6d8 (27 Avg)
The Repeating Crossbow actually outdamages, on average, the Great Crossbow over a 5 round shot cycle. The improved critical is, IMO, more then compensated for by the complete lack of mobility required to reload the Great Crossbow.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think you're letting the big damage number get in the way of an accurate comparison. It's a definite improvement over the H. Repeating Crossbow with one shot (One higher damage value then then H. Repeating, One better Crit number), however it's still a full round to reload the thing compared to a full iterative attack with H. repeater.

Even without the higher level reiterative attacks, you can 'reload' the H. repeating crossbow as a free action so long as the case still has ammo in it. Compare this to the Great Crossbow that requires a full turn to reload. Someone armed with the Repeating Heavy can move and shoot without a problem for 5 rounds before needing to reload. Someone with the Great Crossbow will be able to get off 3 shots in the same amount of time (Shoot, Reload, Shoot, Reload, Shoot), and will not be able to move at all while reloading.

Over Time comparison.
5d10 (Avg 27.5) vs. 6d8 (27 Avg)
The Repeating Crossbow actually outdamages, on average, the Great Crossbow over a 5 round shot cycle. The improved critical is, IMO, more then compensated for by the complete lack of mobility required to reload the Great Crossbow.

If you take Rapid Reload, then until you get an iterative attack, the Great Crossbow is kicking the Heavy Repeating Crossbow's arse and taking names (granted, the HRC wielder gets another feat, but what feat at those levels is as good as +3.5 to damage and half of Improved Critical combined?). Admittedly, once iteratives start to actually hit the enemy, Great Crossbow becomes obsolete, but since our Living worlds take a long time to reach that point (and Psychic Reformation is available by then), I don't think it is a fair point of comparison.

 

[D.Shaffer]

Well, now we're actually getting into discussion of the feat change I was proposing, which is a bit different from the actual discussion of the weapon. But the base weapon by itself is not, IMO, better then the H. Repeating crossbow as written.

Even with the feat addendum I propose, however, you are still sacrificing mobility to get those shots in. I consider that a major liability in any sort of combat encounter as it means to get that coveted 'Once per turn' shot in, you're not going to be moving more then 5 feet in a round. Compare this to a H. Repeating crossbow with Rapid Shot (Ignoring the fact you need Point Blank first, for now), which would grant you 2d10 damage per round (+2 damage over the G. Crossbow, +5.5 over a regular H. repeating) and lets you maintain movement while firing for a -2 pen. Heck, compare it to a Composite Longbow with Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot before adding in Str Bonuses: 2d8+2 damage per turn at close range, you can still move and shoot, and only a -1 pen to attack. This gets more lopsided if you do consider strength bonuses.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Uh, no. You cannot move while using Rapid Shot, which only works during a full attack.

 

[stonegod]

Uh, no. You cannot move while using Rapid Shot, which only works during a full attack.

5' step being the exception.