Good thing it's not official.
Honestly, I don't see why you bothered to mention it @OP.
D&D 5E [GUIDE] My Word Is My Sword: The Paladin Guide
Honestly, I don't see why you bothered to mention it @OP.
Quartz
Hero
What's the difference? Both require an attack roll.
Gladius Legis
Legend
Shove uses an Athletics check, NOT an attack roll.
First off great thread! Lot of great tips on here.
Was wondering what you thought of a off-tank type build that is 16 Pal Vengeance/4 Warlock Hexblade (Doom Pact) in heavy armor
Race is Dragonborn. Base stats: 15, 10, 13, 8, 10, 15. After racial and DM boon: 18, 10, 13, 8, 10, 17
Feats in order: Polearm Mastery > Resilient (CON) > Dragon Fear (CHA) > ASI (+2 STR) > Sentinel
Taking Agonizing Blasts and Grasp of Hadar to add utility to my Eldritch Blasts.
Was wondering what you thought of a off-tank type build that is 16 Pal Vengeance/4 Warlock Hexblade (Doom Pact) in heavy armor
Race is Dragonborn. Base stats: 15, 10, 13, 8, 10, 15. After racial and DM boon: 18, 10, 13, 8, 10, 17
Feats in order: Polearm Mastery > Resilient (CON) > Dragon Fear (CHA) > ASI (+2 STR) > Sentinel
Taking Agonizing Blasts and Grasp of Hadar to add utility to my Eldritch Blasts.
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Disagree hard. Variant Human is better optimization-wise. Even if we talk crits.
Half-Elf is only best for Vengeance Paladin/Hexblade (best 1 level, not two in both cases/races) if he uses Sword and Board because he is very stretched in ASI. But that is not maximum damage Paladin. Vuman is better for that. And even in crit fishing Half-Elf is only marginally better. Check below.
Also imortant advise: with 2 levels Hexblade you lose 1 ASI. With Half-Elf you are already 1 ASI behind vs Vuman. Either 1 level dip or 4 levels dip to not lose last ASI.
Half Elf:
Also if we talk point buy- you want to use CHA for attacks (so Hexblade) but you also need 13 STR anyway to multi out of Paladin and you have to stay on medium armors or go 15 STR (not recommended) for Plate. You start with 17 CHA since you can't start with 18 so we will need ASI for CHA asap.
He needs at least three mandatory feats: RES (CON) for Haste, +1 CHA to get 18 CHA amd Elven Accuracy. Accuracy + Res (CON) or +1 CHA and Accuracy is level 9 at earliest with Pally 1/Hexblade 1/Rest Vengeance to make full combo of VoE->Haste->Curse and abuse Elven Accuracy. He will have either CHA 18 at level 13 assuming he started with Elven Accuracy + RES (CON) or he won't see RES (CON) till level 13 assuming he started with CHA +1 and Accuracy. And RES (CON) is huge for Vengeance Pally.
This is good build for crit fishing but not for maximizng NOVA and DPR damage per turn. He will have only 18 CHA at level 13 and Elven Accuracy + CON. Also 1 handed weapon + Duelist. The only good thing is potentially more crits (which is not even true).
Variant Human:
Vuman is superior for max dmg Vengeance because you can go pure ham PAM build (only race that should do it because of extra feat) and on level 8 you have: PAM (extra attack for Smite and GWM) level 1, Great Weapon Master level 4 (+10 dmg) and RES (CON) level 8. With 1 dip Hex blade we stretch that to level 9. So at level 13 (assuming no Strength Items, which is doubtful, but let's say it's low magic campaign) he has PAM, GWM, RES (CON) and 18 STR. Plus Curse from Hexblade. That is one extra 1d4 + 10 + Smite + 2x d20 rolls attack. Plus Curse.
Variant Human for Vengeance Paladin will always deal more consistent damage and higher Nova because you can go PAM and GWM build. Either VoE for Boss or Bless for rest will be enough to make GWM consistent. More attacks = more smites. And more attacks- more d20 rolls. And only 1 level Hexblade for 19-20 cirt fishing. We don't need early +1 ASI, we don't need to delay our maximum damage potential. Since we go straight STR we also get Plate Armor.
Half-Elf might seem as better choice for Crit Fishing, but that is false. He is marginally better than PAM V-uman:
Assuming 13 level with Haste going + VoE:
Half Elf will attack 3 times: 2 attacks + bonus attack. That is 6 rolls of d20 + 3 rerolls because of Elven Accuracy. Overall- that is 9 x d20 rolls for potential critis.
Variant Human PAM build will attack 4 times for sure with potential 5th attack from Opportunity Attack from reaction (PAM if enemy won initiative and attacks Paladin) in first turn. But let's assume 4 for now: PAM, 2 attacks + Bonus Attack. That is 8 rolls of d20.
Now assuming VoE enemy will also trigger PAM opportunity attack if we lost initiative (which can happen fairy often with dices) the Vuman PAM will roll additional 2 d20 on OA, which in first turn will give him total of 10 x d20 rolls for cirts.
Both builds have 19-20 crits with 1 Hexblade dip.
So Half-Elf with Elven Accuracy and optimized Sword-Board build get's only 1 additional d20 roll for crit fishing while losing plate, bonus attack for Smite and Great Weapon Mastery.
Of course you can try to make PAM Half-Elf but the amount of feats required here would push it so far in levels to get full potential that it's not worth it at all. You could take PAM as Half-Elf and skip GWM to grab RES (CON) and Elven Accuracy asap, but you imo there is no point on Vengeance Pally to take PAM without GWM. You lose tons of potential damage here and you delay your +1 ASI to CHA even more. At best you could do level: 4- +1 CHA ASI, 8- RES (CON), 12- PAM and 16- Elven Accuracy. Even if you change stuff around- waaay tooo looong. You can also go Greatsword but amout for d20 rolls won't change.
The ultimate Vengeance Paladin melee build was always PAM Variant Human wiht 1 dip Hexblade if all you want is absolutely max damage and almost max crits. Half-Elf is too ASI stretched with one feat behind and Elven Accuracy.
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Disclaimer: Yes, I know there is OP Double Scimitar which would make Half-Elf then little better than Vuman, but a) it's a Erebor weapon and most DMs don't have it in other settings or don't allow it b) it's absolutely broken weapon and all DMs I play with (and myself as DM) don't allow it as it's just OP melee that makes others melees worse and c) it's very DM-dependend so I didn't include it. I never seen it allowed at table in form they released it and that is good. One weapon should not be better than every other melee weapon in game and have no downsides.
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I... I've never seen so many mistaken assumptions 
Firstly, Elven Accuracy is far better than you describe. It's not only for crits, it's for skewing the dice distribution.
Second, Paladins of all classes, don't require Res Con, as they get to add their Cha bonus at level 6.
Third, Elven Accuracy comes with +1 Cha.
So there you go, one feat required, which also gets you the 18 Cha.
Firstly, Elven Accuracy is far better than you describe. It's not only for crits, it's for skewing the dice distribution.
Second, Paladins of all classes, don't require Res Con, as they get to add their Cha bonus at level 6.
Third, Elven Accuracy comes with +1 Cha.
So there you go, one feat required, which also gets you the 18 Cha.
I... I've never seen so many mistaken assumptions
Firstly, Elven Accuracy is far better than you describe. It's not only for crits, it's for skewing the dice distribution.
Second, Paladins of all classes, don't require Res Con, as they get to add their Cha bonus at level 6.
Third, Elven Accuracy comes with +1 Cha.
So there you go, one feat required, which also gets you the 18 Cha.
I admit and stand corrected at +1 CHA. Res Con is mandatory on Vengeance Paladin because losing Haste makes you sitting duck and you dont want to lose slots to recast buffs because that is smite lost and Action economy lost. So assuming +1 Cha from accuracy we still need res con so 8-9 level and 20,CHA on 13 level. That makes half elf better than I thought but still behind vuman when it comes to dmg. On 13 level half elf will have +2 more to hit (assuming vuman dont have ogre gloves or giant belt at this point) but deal less dmg, less nova, less dpr and less smites and having only one more d20 roll on VoE target where it all come to play.
If you dont think RES (CON) is mandatory on front line Vegeance Paladin then you probably never played one at higher tiers. I assume you didnt play tier 3 and above with Paladin? Because enemies at high CR will easly give you Conc DC of more than default 10. Even with +7 to save throw you are not in 100% save on DC 10. DC 15+ can easly kill you if you lose haste because you are losing action or screw your acgion economy. And high CR enemies can easly cause DC of 18+. More than that- you are usually attack more than once per turn (especially at higher CR the multi attack is more prominent). Even with High AC you will take hits. You need to fail only one save to lose buff and in case of haste- whole action, which can be deadly. You also lose action enecomy as you need to re-buff yourself instead of doing dmg. I dont think you realize what dmg you can take on high CRs.. +7 to save assuming 14 CON and 20 CHA is not reliable at all at high CR. If you usually play only till like level 10- then ok, you don't need RES (CON) that much and you can skip it. But tier 3 and higher - yes, you need it as you never ever want to fail Conc on Haste during hardest battle (which is when Haste should be used for).
Still vuman PAM will be only Little less efficient in crit fishing where it matters (boss) and still have better Nova and DPR. Also Elven Accuracy may or may not come to Play more in non VoE scenarios but that is party and situation depend. He may or may not get advantage from other sources. While PAM is always beneficial. Sure there is overrated Darkness + devil sight combo but it takes Full Action to cast, takes place of a Haste and can be easly countered by one Daylight of Dispel Magic spell, where Daylight is known to every caster class in game.
While I stand corrected about CHA ASI the vuman on PAM build is still better optimized choice do max dmg and Nova Vengeance Paladin (as this guide author even said). And its only marginally worse at crit fish on demand with VOE but has better action economy, more DPR and more smites.
So if he wants max dmg and dpr- vuman > half elf. If he wants to give up higher consistent DRP and NOVA vs for better crit fishing - then he should take Half Elf. But if we talk 100% dmg/nova optimalization- Vuman. Unless he wants to do PAM half elf but two-handed weapons without GWM is not optimized choice in my opinion.
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Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Benny89, if someone is interested in a DPR-only focused two hander this is useful. But Soulblighter said two levels of Hexblade - that doesn't let you use two handed weapons with Hex Warrior. You'd need a third warlock level to pick up Pact of the Blade to do that. Charisma also helps other aspects of a character including saves, more skills than STR, spell DCs, etc.
If someone is looking for information on a particular build, going off on a different build isn't particularly adding to the conversation.
I do like your enthusiasm. Considering looking for a build using a non-two handed weapon (so GWM would only grant bonus action attacks on crit, no -5/+10, and PAM would limit you to suboptimal Spear and Quarterstaff) for CHR based wielding, what would be your recommendation for race? Preferably looking beyond DPR to more holistic measures of success.
Just to clarify: for Variant Human you want to use STR, not CHA because you don't have enough bonus as Half Elf and good feat that can give +1 and give something beneficial (like Elven Accuracy). So for Variant Human DPR PAM build- 1 level of Hexblade is only taken for: Curse, Shield spell, 2 cantrips, 1 short rest slot (for Bless/Hunter's Mark or Shield) and 3 other spells. We don't want CHA on PAM builds, not worth it.
Now to your question about CHA-based build:
If you want to use 1 handed weapon: Half-Elf hands down. I said that Half Elf is the best race to pick for Sword and Board Vengeance/Hex build because you don't need: PAM and GWM.
So I definitelly recommend Half-Elf here for Sword+Shield build. Half-Drow best for Fearie Fire. The build would look like that:
STR: 13 (we need that to multiclass out of Paladin), DEX: 14 (for +2 bonus to medium armors), CON: 13 (we will even that with RES (CON), INT: 8 (useless), Wisdom: 12 (+1 to WIS is always good) and CHA: 17 (we will even that with Elven Accuracy).
You can also go: 15,12,13,8,12,17 to be able to wear plate armor.
We want to start with Paladin level 1 Vengeance. We will use rapier + shield because our DEX is at +2 vs +1 STR. Next level we take 1 level of Hexblade (Pact of Blade) and we get to use our CHA for one-handed weapons. Now we will be having +3 using our CHA 17. Any one-handed weapon will work now. Then we will continiue Paladin levels till we get to level 6 Paladin (level 7 character) to get Aura as fast as possible.
Now for feats:
Level 4 Paladin (level 5 character) we will grab Elven Accuracy: this will even our CHA to 18, giving us +4 to attacks with one-haded weapons using Hexblade and already giving us later +4 to saves from Aura.
Now after level 7 we have two options: continue Paladin all the way (19 levels) to not lose ASI or take 3 more levels of Hexbalde to not lose ASI too.
Because we get all ASI only if we do either 19/1, 16/4, 12/8 etc.
In my opinion taking 2 or 3 levels of Hexblade is bad because you lose one ASI. Also for our optimized Half-Elf Vengeance - 1 level dip Hexblade gives us everything we need. If you really want to get Agonizing Blast + Darkness + Devil Sight combo I would go 16 Paladin/4 Hexblade. Then you lose high-level slots for smites but you get Agonizing Blast + Darkness Devil Sight combo if you like that.
So I recommend here after 7 level to continue Paladin till the end, then at next levels we grab:
Level 8 Paladin (9 level character): RES (CON). This gives us now 14 CON so +2, Aura gives us +4 and we are proficient in CON which at this level gives us another +4. So overall we have 2+4+4 = +10 CON saves throws which makes us automatically pass any DC 10 Concentration save.
Level 12 Paladin (13 character) we grab +2 CHA ASI.
This gives us now our full potential and best Half-Elf Vengeance/Hex optimization:
We have 20 CHA so +5 to attacks on level 13 (amazing). We have Elven Accuracy so rerolls on advantage (VoE), we have +5 Aura save throws (amazing). We also have proficiency in CON saves which at level 13 gives us: 2+5+5= +12 DC throw on Concentration, so we are auto-pass on DC up to 12 and easy pass DC 15 and even DC 18+ will be much easier.
We will use Medium Armor (because only 13 STR, unless you find STR boosting items) so our AC will be 17+2=19. For Fighting style I recommend Duelist by default or Defense for low magic campaign to even up AC to 20 (22 with Haste). But by default: Duelist.
So our Half-Elf looks like that on level 13:
STR: 13, DEX: 14, CON: 14 (Prof), INT: 8, WIS: 12 (Prof), CHA: 20 (Prof)
Feats: Elven Accuracy, RES (CON), CHA+2
Fighting Style: Duelist
Aura bonus: +5 to all saves
Concentration Check: +12 to Concentration save.
This way we can go in fight with Haste/Bless all day and not worry abou Conc Check most of the time, we have +5 to attacks with CHA, we have Curse, Elven Accuracy and 3 attacks per round with Haste at 1k8+2+1k8+5 with +5 to hit and vs VoE target= triple d20 roll on one attack. And we have free bonus action each turn so we go VoE first turn + Haste so 1 attack, next turn Curse + 3 attack (19-20 crits, Evlen Accuracy) and next turns we go full ham.
Everything looks the same if you/he decides to go 4 levels of Hexblade instead of 1 level dip, same feats etc. With 4 levels Hexblade you get also Darkness + Devil Sight which gives us total not of THREE possible ways to get advantage:
1. Vow of Enmity
2. Fearie Fire from being Half-Drow (if allowed)
3. Darkness + Devilsight combo
This is best build you can do for Half-Elf Vengeance/Hexblade build. It's not as much nova/dpr as Vuman Pam but you have better save throws and better hit chance due to 20 CHA and Elven Accuracy. So you will hit more often for less damage.
Overall in my opinion this is second best possible build for Vengeance Paladin for damage behind Vuman PAM, but definitely this one is safer and more all-around as on level 13 you have: +1 more to hit, +2 more to save throws and better advantage tools (Fearie Fire + VoE assuming 19/1 build as I recommend). To compare Vuman PAM on level 13 have: PAM, GWM, RES (CON) and 18 STR (if he didn't get any STR item, because then you pump CHA). So he has -1 less to hit, but one more attack and +10 to damage. So overall it's a matter of difference between: better accuracy (rerolls) vs more smites and much more dmg spikes.
The other variant of this Half-Elf build is to give up +2 CHA at 13 level and grab GWM and use greatsword, but then you need 4 levels of Hexblade to not lose ASI and to be able to use GS with CHA. And our CHA 20 would be pushed back to level 17. That would make "Nova" variant of Half-Elf build.
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