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hamper this paladin
- Thread starter apesamongus
- Start date
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Good suggestions all around, but nobody has mentioned touch of idiocy yet--that would reduce his wisdom and charisma, putting a double whammy on his will save.
Another thing that nobody has mentioned: tough bad guy meatshields. You could slap a trio of gray render zombies, skeletal dragons, or other very high hit point, low CR undead in front of the paladin and let him tear them up for a while. Even as a very high strength character, it'll take him at least a full attack per foe to get them out of the way. They've too many HD to turn reliably. (And even if successful, turning wouldn't get rid of them much more quickly than full attacking them). If he ignores them, they can put a world of hurt on his less armored allies, so he has to focus on taking them down. So, the paladin has to keep the enemy meatshields busy, leaving the BBEG to the other party memebers.
Another thing that nobody has mentioned: tough bad guy meatshields. You could slap a trio of gray render zombies, skeletal dragons, or other very high hit point, low CR undead in front of the paladin and let him tear them up for a while. Even as a very high strength character, it'll take him at least a full attack per foe to get them out of the way. They've too many HD to turn reliably. (And even if successful, turning wouldn't get rid of them much more quickly than full attacking them). If he ignores them, they can put a world of hurt on his less armored allies, so he has to focus on taking them down. So, the paladin has to keep the enemy meatshields busy, leaving the BBEG to the other party memebers.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
One other point: How are his ranged attacks? Is he very mobile (if he's a gestalt paladin/monk, he could be, but most paladins aren't without their mounts).
Put the party up against flying creatures or in hampered terrain (where a mount isn't an option) and the paladin might well find that it's all he can do to simply get where he needs to be. Tossing an entangle or briar web spell in the middle of heavy undergrowth would take him a while to get out of.
Also, note that the hemisphere version of wall of ice has no save if the caster level is high enough to target it so that the walls are more than 5' from the paladin. Wall of stone and wall of force similarly have no save.
Put the party up against flying creatures or in hampered terrain (where a mount isn't an option) and the paladin might well find that it's all he can do to simply get where he needs to be. Tossing an entangle or briar web spell in the middle of heavy undergrowth would take him a while to get out of.
Also, note that the hemisphere version of wall of ice has no save if the caster level is high enough to target it so that the walls are more than 5' from the paladin. Wall of stone and wall of force similarly have no save.
Taloras
First Post
Do you mind throwing in a CR 16? Jahi from MMII. Touch attack does 1d3 +1d4 charisma drain. A few hits from that and his saves will drop. Granted, its incorporeal with 162 HP....but with smite evil, he can take care of it(hopefully). And this weakens him for other saves. Let the Jahi just show up during a battle and decide it wants the paladin as its chosen one.....doesnt even have to be working with the enemy.
colinfit20
Explorer
Reg: Hampering a Paladin
You could be cruel and play the unusual trick of having his group approached by someone who looks like a well known villain but doesn't radiate evil who if allowed reveals their true body was stolen by the villain who is en route to complete a task of monumental evil since noone suspects the hosts new body.
To free the victim they have to secure a artefact the victim woke up next to and take it to someone who can reverse the change, however info at the site indicates that for the artefact to be moved one of the party has to be willing to touch and carry the artefact the side effect is that the character and the victim swap places.
If your paladin is true to their calling means they're the one to do this, if they don't then special note should be played to the character that does since for the duration of that adventure they gain the paladin's special abilities since the paladin's deity has taken special interest in the situation and if the paladin did decline verbally or not volunteering they would have been shirking their paladinic duties.
The side effect only lasts until the victim is restored to their true body which would leave the villain right in their midst in case you were wondering, the overall point is to give the paladin a taste of being stuck with a character with physical abilities less than theirs but not with a malicious intent.
Of course the gender, race and actual identity of the victim is something you should decide upon as the means of the level of importance of the event. If the victim was actually the intended of the local lord, a powerful councillor or even someone with access to resources the villain lacks or even as a means of letting people think the villain's dead by arranging the others death so allowing the villain to gain a new body and justifiablly a very worthy adversary for the PCs.
You could be cruel and play the unusual trick of having his group approached by someone who looks like a well known villain but doesn't radiate evil who if allowed reveals their true body was stolen by the villain who is en route to complete a task of monumental evil since noone suspects the hosts new body.
To free the victim they have to secure a artefact the victim woke up next to and take it to someone who can reverse the change, however info at the site indicates that for the artefact to be moved one of the party has to be willing to touch and carry the artefact the side effect is that the character and the victim swap places.
If your paladin is true to their calling means they're the one to do this, if they don't then special note should be played to the character that does since for the duration of that adventure they gain the paladin's special abilities since the paladin's deity has taken special interest in the situation and if the paladin did decline verbally or not volunteering they would have been shirking their paladinic duties.
The side effect only lasts until the victim is restored to their true body which would leave the villain right in their midst in case you were wondering, the overall point is to give the paladin a taste of being stuck with a character with physical abilities less than theirs but not with a malicious intent.
Of course the gender, race and actual identity of the victim is something you should decide upon as the means of the level of importance of the event. If the victim was actually the intended of the local lord, a powerful councillor or even someone with access to resources the villain lacks or even as a means of letting people think the villain's dead by arranging the others death so allowing the villain to gain a new body and justifiablly a very worthy adversary for the PCs.
Viktyr Gehrig
First Post
apesamongus said:
How "not dead" do you need him?
If unconscious will work for you, Merciful weapons do an extra d6 of damage and convert all the damage to subdual. You can have a dual-wielding Rogue pull off a Full Attack worth of subdual Sneaks-- which should "marginalize" him pretty fast.
Added benefit-- it won't take him nearly as long to recover as if he'd taken real damage.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
He may be strong but how strong are we talking about? Why not throw a strong, large grappler at him that has Improved Grapple? An ogre with that feat should fit the bill nicely. Assuming the paladin doesn't have improved grapple himself, that ogre would get +8 on the paladin without comparing strengths yet.
smootrk
First Post
A good old rust monster can ruin any Tank Style fighter or paladin's day.
Another idea is to have the encounters take place in areas under the Desecrate spell effect, or other Unholy region (houserule territory) that you may create to negate or reduce holy (paladin/good cleric) characters' abilities. An evil region that gives good characters substantial penalties to their saves (like a strong version of Prayer spell cast by evil entity). This gives your bad-guys a chance to use those spells or spell effects that your paladin is seemingly too resistant.
Best also to use Neutrally Aligned creatures as the fodder against the Paladin as they will not be subject to smites and such. Wardogs, trained bears, owlbears, carrion crawlers, etc ... you get the picture. They can be trained and utilized by your evil foes.
Another idea is to have the encounters take place in areas under the Desecrate spell effect, or other Unholy region (houserule territory) that you may create to negate or reduce holy (paladin/good cleric) characters' abilities. An evil region that gives good characters substantial penalties to their saves (like a strong version of Prayer spell cast by evil entity). This gives your bad-guys a chance to use those spells or spell effects that your paladin is seemingly too resistant.
Best also to use Neutrally Aligned creatures as the fodder against the Paladin as they will not be subject to smites and such. Wardogs, trained bears, owlbears, carrion crawlers, etc ... you get the picture. They can be trained and utilized by your evil foes.
I like the idea of putting an innocent in harms way and letting the Paladin deal with that. Another interesting gambit, ...put him up against a Giant with a Tower Shield, and put a victim on the Tower Shield. Now he has to kill the giant while avoiding incidental damage to the "shield maiden." Rack up a good penalty on his attacks and let him take a few rounds trying to work his way through it.
Another alternative, I've enjoyed using on occassion, is obligating the Paladin before the fight. This can be done in conjunction with saving someone. The price of releasing a prisoner could be his word that he will stay out of the fight, or that he will not fight the main enemy, etc. Of course, it would help if you then provided the character with something interesting to do during the fight, or even worked in an angle where he could pursue a side combat. That way the player isn't totally bored. But the idea here would be to force him to stake his honor on his willingness to let the others take care of the fight. If he changes his mind, and decides to fight, then he loses his Paladin abilities anyway, and hence, he's easier to deal with.
One other angle to the oath-out variant is that the wording could be sufficiently narrow to allow the Paladin to help out in the fight, but not to fight himself. At 12th level he will have good curing abilities and some spells. The character could then try to use his Paladin as a support character, giving him a role-reversal (good drama) and potentially a crucial role after all, just not one that utilizes his fighting skills.
Another alternative, I've enjoyed using on occassion, is obligating the Paladin before the fight. This can be done in conjunction with saving someone. The price of releasing a prisoner could be his word that he will stay out of the fight, or that he will not fight the main enemy, etc. Of course, it would help if you then provided the character with something interesting to do during the fight, or even worked in an angle where he could pursue a side combat. That way the player isn't totally bored. But the idea here would be to force him to stake his honor on his willingness to let the others take care of the fight. If he changes his mind, and decides to fight, then he loses his Paladin abilities anyway, and hence, he's easier to deal with.
One other angle to the oath-out variant is that the wording could be sufficiently narrow to allow the Paladin to help out in the fight, but not to fight himself. At 12th level he will have good curing abilities and some spells. The character could then try to use his Paladin as a support character, giving him a role-reversal (good drama) and potentially a crucial role after all, just not one that utilizes his fighting skills.
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