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Help me challenge my 12th level party with hobgobolins!

Lord Zardoz

Explorer
Hehe, dont worry about it Gold Roger. I dont mean to try to pick apart your ideas.

Anyway, I do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about ways to make Hobgoblins or Orcs or whatever a legitimate challenge to higher level adventurer parties. But I have not actually have many chances to put my ideas into action, since circumstances conspire to make it impossible to run a D&D game to the point where I would be trying to throw Hobgoblins against higher level PC's.

Even as a worst case scenario, Hobgoblins and Orcs and the like do serve a purpose of allowing the PC's to have 'Look at how Awesome I am' moments by mowing down a hundred or more Hobgoblins with near impunity as they try to support the 'real' combatants.

I am hoping that the original poster for this thread will show up and give us some more info about the makeup of his players.

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Ragnar69

First Post
Delta said:
(1) You could add gobs of class levels to hobgoblins... you'd need to break the "Organization" specification in the MM to do that.
I don't know why everyone's afraid of adding class levels. Do you think in real life everyone is level 1? Level is not only about combat prowess (though that automaticaly comes along in D&D), it is also about skill and knowledge. I would say the average worker in a company should be lvl 1-3 depending on age, specialists like lawyers lvl 4-5, upper management lvl 6-9, and people like Bill Gates lvl 10+.

And that's how I do it in my campaign. Most townsfolk in their early 30ies, from the seamstress over the cutpurse to the city guard is lvl 3, with specialists (elite soldiers, palace guards, master craftsmen) up to lvl 5. Leaders (important officers, mayors, guildmasters) range from 6-9. Lvl 10+ is reserved for (in)famous personalities known far and wide and each of those should have a fully developed history and personality.

PS: Strenght&Honor from Kenzer is a great sourcebook on hobgoblins and easily portable into other settings.
 
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Guilberwood

First Post
Thanks so much for the replies!

So many ideas I’m overwhelmed!

To answer a few of the questions..

They’re not going trough Kharolis but close….they’re in the Thotl gap

As to the Ac of the party.. they are mostly in the low 20’s. The fighter/druid and the knight have something like 18-20. The ranger can get his AC as high as 30, but he won’t hit anything this way. The only real problem is the monk, her AC is around 30, and she can cast protection from evil or magic circle against evil/caos/law..whatever

A few ideas I’ll use.

a) Ranged weapons with hit and run tactics
b) Bards and low level adepts with group buffs
c) Dead bodies and skeletons as warnings of the dangers to come
d) A elite of mounted and classed hobgoblins
e) Scouts! Both the class and the observers type
f) An increasing amount of enemies. I’ll star slow, and more and more and more mobs will come as the fights goes on.
g) Logs, pits, and traps as mentioned in these posts
h) A lot of other things mentioned I just forgot right now

Thanks so much guys. These ideas have really opened my mind and I think I’ll be able to throw a real challenge to my party.
This is the sort of thing that makes this community so great….
If other ideas come..post it please…
I’ll let you know how it went..we play on Friday!

Thanks again
Guilberwood
 

Communication: Established fortifications will have some communication technique. Signal fires, heliographs, semaphores, drums, pigeons, smoke signals, pony express etc have been used for millenia to transmit information several miles in a short period of time. Decent communication can mean that the party hits one or two lines of defense and then nothing else for miles, as the 'goblins pull back and let the party get themselves surrounded.

Feints: use of light forces that get into a fight and "bite off more than they can chew" and run away. Typical examples are archers who attack and when the party doesn't fall, flee on horseback. The party pursues only to find a second ambush of much larger size.

Redirected water ways: "mountain pass" is another way of saying "riverbed in search of water." Dams can be constructed or cisterns dug to store water to be released in a deluge. Smart goblins might even cultivate "natural" defensible positions (cluster of rocks & trees to provide cover with decent field of fire on all sides) within the water channel so that the invaders place themselves as far away from real safety as possible.

Diplomacy/Beauracracy: I'm not up on "modern" DL, but what if the 'goblins were to go the "customs" route and demand to see the party's travel papers and make them pay taxes (aka "tribute")? How will a KoS deal with hobgoblins who call anyone who doesn't pay the tolls a "smuggler"?
 


Lord Zardoz

Explorer
Defeating party AC with 1 HD Hobgoblins

Ok, so Low 20's for most, one 18, and a Monk at Ac 30. With some effort, all but the monk should be fairly easy to score hits on. Lets say the standard AC is 22 for your party.

First start with a standard hobgoblin (using 3.0 stats, probably still accurate).

Hobgoblin Soldiers: CR 1/2; Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid); PG 119; HD 1d8+1; HP: 5;
Init +1(Dex); Spd 30ft; AC 15; Bab +1; Atk +1 LongSword 1d8,Tht 19, (S),
+2 Javelin 1d6, (P) Face 5ft/5ft, Reach 5ft; SQ (Dark Vision 60ft),
AL LE, Saves Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +0; Str 11, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10;
Skills: Hide 1, Listen 3, Move Silently 3+4, Spot 3; Feats: Alertness;
Eqp: Studded Leather, Small Shield, Long Sword, 3 Javelins;

So obviously, standard issue is not too bad, but no so good. Looks like under normal circumstances, he can probably hit only one of your players with any reliability. Lets customize as an archer:

Hobgoblin Archer: CR 1/2; Medium Humanoid (Goblinoid); PG 119; HD 1d8+1; HP: 5;
Init +1(Dex); Spd 30ft; AC 16; Bab +1; Atk +1 Shortsword 1d6,Tht 19, (S),
+4 Longbow, Crit x3, (P) Face 5ft/5ft, Reach 5ft; SQ (Dark Vision 60ft),
AL LE, Saves Fort +3, Ref +2, Will -1; Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 10;
Skills: Hide 2, Move Silently 4+4; Feats: Wpn Focus Long Bow;
Eqp: Studded Leather, Buckler, Short Sword, Longbow;

By kicking up the Dex one point and using Wpn Focus on his long bow instead of alertness, we are at +4 to hit. So your now scoring hits vs AC 22 on an 18 or better within short range. You can use a Bard or a Bless spell and get a +1 Morale. A 5th level preist can cast Prayer for a +1 luck bonus. So with Bless/Bard + Prayer you can get the following:

Longbow, +6 to hit, 1d8+1 dmg.

Using my suggested maxed out Expert Tactician for support with a Prayer spell active with these archers, you can get +11 to hit and +5 to damage. That should be plenty to land hits on your PC's at Ac 22 or lower.

And that is with a 1/2 HD Hobgoblin with minor modifications.

To get better than that your going to have to find ways to deny the Dex bonus. If you can force the players to be 'off balance', your archers get a +2, ditto for climbing, and the targets get no AC bonus from Dex. Try to find some way to disable or damage the players shields and / or armor if you need to improve this.

If you want to be Evil, throw some poison on those arrows. Small Centipede poison is probably reasonable for Hobgobs, but a DC 11 fort save just wont cut it here. Go with the Giant wasp poison at DC 18. 1d6 Dex dmg initial, and another 1d6 Dex secondary will add some AC loss.

The big problem is going to be the Monk. At AC 30, he is pretty much untouchable. Given that it is a Monk, AC 30 is probably going to count as the touch attack AC as well. So your probably not going to score with a tangle foot bag or Net. On top of that, with a monks movement rate, your not going to get a whole lot of success with attack + half move retreats. And to further complicate things, your going to be hard pressed to overcome the strong saves and cause ability damage to cut the AC. I will admit that at this time, I just dont see a way to make 1/2 HD Hobgoblins viable threats to this character. Your Hobgobs are just going to have to find a way to cancel the magic items that are pumping the AC here (at AC 30, at least half of that must be from magic items).

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Use area attacks that entangle, slow or gas the group. Caltrops and oil... everything castle defenders use from above. Use ledges to shoot from and runaway when they get close. Have them run into tunnels and bar and close the doors behind them, a couple of explosive runned doors with Goblin 'Enter at your own risk' should change their mind about hastily entering.

Have horns, flags, smoke and fire for signalling.

Have the heroes scamble up after the first set of hobgoblins and from the new vantage point let them see deeper into the valley. Masses of hobgoblins marching into camps. Aerial riders on wyverns, scouts on large mountain camps. Give them a military flair.

Also you could make a hobgoblin Sangralai... let them meet a bunch of hobgoblin monks and clerics. Have them challenge the monk to a series of challenges to proceed. If anything let the monks get along as monks. If he wants to fight them all, all well and good. Let him work up a sweat then win, then let him find out he has just beaten some of the lower brethren. Have the monks have obvious ranking and up the tempo... have lots of temples scattered in the valley so that it is also obvious that there are many monks of many schools. Monks also make nasty hit and run archers... as do barbarians.
 


Lord Zardoz

Explorer
Rat Bastard Idea: Poisoned Caltrops

Now there is an idea that does not need a whole lot of elaboration.

Depending on how well dispersed the Caltrops are, you can probably get some good results with this. At a +0 attack roll, and at a further +2 to player AC if they are wearing footwear, Caltrops will not score hits often. Your going to be fishing for 20's to get this to work. But over a wide enough area, and assuming 1 attack roll per 5 foot square entered, it can probably have a decent effect.

But the upshot is that the caltrops will probably get you alot of mileage from the poison, if you can force the players to remain confined within a given area.

And as a secondary note: Try to justify the use of Fatigued or Exhausted penalties. If you keep the pressure up long enough, it should not be a stretch, if you can force the characters to not sleep for one night, or after a particularly long battle.

Fatigued: -2 to Str and Dex
Exhauseted: -6 to Str and Dex

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