Heroes of the Elemental Chaos

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy keterys!

I think the theory is that you foreshadow the fight against the big bad throughout the campaign, so you need those lower levels to sprinkle through.

I agree but what is the point if ultimately you make the final confrontation a completely isolated experience?

Are they suggesting that all BBEG's should dwell in an empty void just waiting for PCs to show up and mug them off?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I'm not sure how you are reaching that conclusion. For me, the evidence points to the opposite - the addition of lower level mooks is an indication that they are NOT being passive, but sending their minions out into the word to work on their agenda. Occasionally the PCs may encounter such minions and hence the inclusion of followers that are not "level appropriate" with their master. To me this suggests that they DON'T intend PCs to be "mugging" epic solos without some good reason and follow up to do so.

Now, if you are planning such a "mugging", yeah, the lower level mooks aren't much use to you.

 

[keterys]

Nah, I think it's more that they just don't have any monsters at all (just big bads) in the post-30 stretch. Guess at that point they figure the DM can just make things up.

I know I'm going to have to, and I'm just hoping they let me get away with it You'll want to for the environment anyways (ex: cascades of lava, volcanic bursts, etc)

I do think you can cheat a bit by just taking some monsters to 11. They're just "mooks" so they don't need anything _extra_ special (that can go on the big bad or the environment)

Epic Conflagration Orb (As Conflagration Orb + 10 levels)
Aura 5 Everburning - any enemy in the aura takes a cumulative -2 penalty to saves against ongoing fire.
m Roiling Flames +33vR; 3d10+12 fire and ongoing 30 fire (save ends). E: Orb shifts 1.
r Scorching Bolts (1 or 2) +35R 3d10+12 fire and ongoing 30 fire (save ends).
A Fire Tempest (3 x burst 2s) +35R 3d10+12 fire and if the target has ongoing damage, it takes that ongoing damage immediately.
C Waves of Flame (CB5) +33R 3d10+12 fire and the target is pushed 5 squares and knocked prone.
E: Zone heavily obscured against non-fire creatures. Any creature entering or ending takes 30 fire.

 

[RangerWickett]

I picked it up today. Nothing tickled my design senses quite as well as the Skald and Berserker did in HoFeywild, but it looks kinda nice.

 

[Balesir]

Hi there,

I am interested in this book, but I am wondering did they fix the flaws from the Imix and Ogremoch in MM3 with the Cryonax and Yan-ci-bin entries?

Specifically that of making all the detailed subordinates utterly useless when running encounters wherein the goal is to face the BBEG themselves.

You can keep the XP value (and thus, to a certain aesthetic, the "identity") of a monster while converting it into a minion 8 levels higher, an elite 4 levels lower or a solo 9 levels lower.

Modify those level 22 'chosen' to be lvl 30 minions and/or level 20 'conflagrations' to be level 28 minions, and you have your "honour guard".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Dr_Ruminahui!

I'm not sure how you are reaching that conclusion.

Its very simple. The main point of an Imix or Ogremoch entry is to support an eventual assault against the BBEG itself. But its this asault which is totally unsupported by the entry.

Yes we have a few heroic tier mooks, yes he have a few high paragon/low epic tier mooks, but there is wholly nothing to support even a (3-4 encounter) delve culminating in a battle with either BBEG.

For me, the evidence points to the opposite - the addition of lower level mooks is an indication that they are NOT being passive, but sending their minions out into the word to work on their agenda. Occasionally the PCs may encounter such minions and hence the inclusion of followers that are not "level appropriate" with their master. To me this suggests that they DON'T intend PCs to be "mugging" epic solos without some good reason and follow up to do so.

You are missing the point. This is not a condemnation of having lower level mooks. Its a condemnation of having zero support for parties looking to take on the BBEG.

Now, if you are planning such a "mugging", yeah, the lower level mooks aren't much use to you.

Both entries are a lopsided mess. The middling group of servants are a complete waste.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy keterys!

Nah, I think it's more that they just don't have any monsters at all (just big bads) in the post-30 stretch.

That in itself then raises two questions.

1. Why did they design the BBEG's that way? Its like having a Level 20 King with no Lieutenants beyond Level 1.
2. What happened to the imaginations of designers?

Guess at that point they figure the DM can just make things up.

Thats never a good reason to get you to buy a product though.

I know I'm going to have to, and I'm just hoping they let me get away with it You'll want to for the environment anyways (ex: cascades of lava, volcanic bursts, etc)

I'm still waiting to hear from someone who has the book whether the same (10 level) disparity between BBEG's and mooks exists?

I do think you can cheat a bit by just taking some monsters to 11. They're just "mooks" so they don't need anything _extra_ special (that can go on the big bad or the environment)

Epic Conflagration Orb (As Conflagration Orb + 10 levels)
Aura 5 Everburning - any enemy in the aura takes a cumulative -2 penalty to saves against ongoing fire.
m Roiling Flames +33vR; 3d10+12 fire and ongoing 30 fire (save ends). E: Orb shifts 1.
r Scorching Bolts (1 or 2) +35R 3d10+12 fire and ongoing 30 fire (save ends).
A Fire Tempest (3 x burst 2s) +35R 3d10+12 fire and if the target has ongoing damage, it takes that ongoing damage immediately.
C Waves of Flame (CB5) +33R 3d10+12 fire and the target is pushed 5 squares and knocked prone.
E: Zone heavily obscured against non-fire creatures. Any creature entering or ending takes 30 fire.

I don't think anyone is suggesting having an entire book of monsters supporting one of these BBEG's, but it would be nice, for once, just once, to see one of the designers put a little more thought behind running the encounters in the lead-up to the BBEG showdown.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

My copy arrived last night. I can't wait to crack it open during my lunch break!

 

[keterys]

Well, given that in theory it might be _20_ encounters leading up to them, they'd probably need a good 40 different creatures.

Epic D&D just never got full support. But I will admit that DMs that make it to epic are probably capable of making their own monsters, or modifying lower level ones appropriately.

If you're more suggesting that the elemental lords should have been, say, level 22-26 or so and then used all the 18-25 efreets, archons, etc. Well, sure.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Balesir!

You can keep the XP value (and thus, to a certain aesthetic, the "identity") of a monster while converting it into a minion 8 levels higher, an elite 4 levels lower or a solo 9 levels lower.

Modify those level 22 'chosen' to be lvl 30 minions and/or level 20 'conflagrations' to be level 28 minions, and you have your "honour guard".

I know all about that, darn it I thought I practically invented rank scaling on these forums about 4 years ago.

But the point remains this. If a DM wants to run a delve leading up to a showdown with the BBEG then they have scant resources to work with, even though various entries will have from 6-9 supporting stat-blocks. That just seems like an unsatisfying 'jack-of-all-trades' design approach that ends up being master of none.