D&D 5E Hexblade vs Other Warlocks

[Ancalagon]

Counting the number of class features of extra proficiencies is the wrong way to look at things. You have to measure a subclass by how good it is at the things it wants to do. So yes, when you have a subclass that's intended to be highly transformative and make the class fill a role that doesn't come naturally, there's going to have to be a lot of bonus basic abilities to get them up to a reasonable threshold. This doesn't make them stronger because the entire point is that they don't synergize with many of the existing class abilities.

This is especially true for gish type subclasses. Because there's no baseline gish class in 5e, all the gish subclasses have to either tack spellcasting onto a martial class or dump a bunch of martial weapon and armor proficiency talents onto a caster class. If you're just abstractly counting the number of class features these subclasses offer you'll get a high number, but that's deceptive. Those class features are a rework, not an upgrade, and they exist only to enable a new style of play for the class. Once you see them in actual play it's obvious they're no stronger, or at least not stronger because of those extra basic proficiency elements.

This is very true. A gish may seem like she can "do almost as much as a wizard" but often she can't, because 2/3 of her magic is devoted to enhance her fighting ability. A gish that uses most of their magic for utility/blasting is a 2nd rate caster and a 2nd rate fighter at most.

 

[Kurotowa]

This is very true. A gish may seem like she can "do almost as much as a wizard" but often she can't, because 2/3 of her magic is devoted to enhance her fighting ability. A gish that uses most of their magic for utility/blasting is a 2nd rate caster and a 2nd rate fighter at most.

It's the classic Mystic Theurge dilemma. Someone who can fight almost as good as a Fighter and cast almost as good as a Wizard is still just second rate at everything if that's all they can do. Those two 80% ranks don't add up to 160% unless there's a specific way they synergize. That's why the gish subclasses have to pile on so many options to get them up to a proper PC baseline in their new skill focus.

 

[Xeviat]

My big issue with the Pact of the Blade is that Pact of the Time with Shillelagh, Booming Blade, and Green flame Blade does it better without having to spend your precious invocations to keep up with it.

The issue of a warlock being a blaster for 2 levels and then suddenly being melee at 3rd level is a big issue. It's why I start most of my games at 3rd level. I wonder if flip-flopping the boon and pact would be better: you get your boon at first level and have two levels to play with it before your pact is sealed and you understand the nature of the power you've been playing with.

It's the same issue with valor Bards suddenly getting medium armor. It's weird.

 

[Ancalagon]

My big issue with the Pact of the Blade is that Pact of the Time with Shillelagh, Booming Blade, and Green flame Blade does it better without having to spend your precious invocations to keep up with it.

The issue of a warlock being a blaster for 2 levels and then suddenly being melee at 3rd level is a big issue. It's why I start most of my games at 3rd level. I wonder if flip-flopping the boon and pact would be better: you get your boon at first level and have two levels to play with it before your pact is sealed and you understand the nature of the power you've been playing with.

It's the same issue with valor Bards suddenly getting medium armor. It's weird.

That's why taking 1-3 levels of fighter first makes a lot of sense and make some of those issues disappear.

 

[Kurotowa]

My big issue with the Pact of the Blade is that Pact of the Time with Shillelagh, Booming Blade, and Green flame Blade does it better without having to spend your precious invocations to keep up with it.

To be fair, Shillelagh doesn't scale and the Sword Coast attack cantrips are eternal problem children that are just poorly designed. They exist to prop up the Bladesinger and should have been class features, not general Wizard cantrips. They only exist because Sword Coast was such an early book and would never be officially printed today. In the hypothetical scenario where I actually sit behind a DM screen again, I'd just ban the whole book. Nothing of value would be lost.

They're a go-to for forum optimizers, but most people I've sat down and played with don't even remember the Sword Coast book exists.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They only exist because Sword Coast was such an early book and would never be officially printed today. In the hypothetical scenario where I actually sit behind a DM screen again, I'd just ban the whole book. Nothing of value would be lost.

Swashbuckler is one of the best subclasses in the game. Not from a power standpoint, all it does in terms of power is make the rogue play a little easier and not need mobile to accomplish a common rogue tactic, but in terms of being very very fun to play.

Likewise, the Bladesinger is incredibly fun, and IMO only forum optimizers dislike it, usually either because they think some potential trick or other is "broken" or because they think the Bladesinger can't survive melee combat because a spreadsheet said so.

The Arcana Domain is a big favorite amongst players I know, and I'm the only person I know IRL who even gets on DnD forums. It's just really fun.

Sun Soul Monk is extremely cool. Like...I can't imagine not loving Sun Soul Monk. It's rad as hell. And "monk who punches from 30ft away" is a rad archetype that a lot of people want to play, and channeling radiant energy through your body is a very Monk thing. 10/10.

Oath of The Crown is wildly underrated. Don't @ me. It's a good oath.

Mastermind is a great smart rogue, and I genuinely don't know why it doesn't get more play.

I forgot the Storm Sorcerer was from SCAG, but holy wow I hope you also forgot that fact, because if losing the Storm Sorcerer is losing nothing of value...we have extremely different ideas of what value is.

THe Cantrips are also great. The two weapon related ones get people's dander up, but that reaction is overblown. Besides that, Lightning Lure is one of my favorite cantrips.

Also, BB and GFB are available to 3 classes for a reason. They're very much not just there to support the Bladesinger.

I mean, hell, if they were, why would the Bladesinger even have Extra Attack?

SCAG is perhaps 5e's most underrated book, IMO.

 

[Kurotowa]

SCAG is perhaps 5e's most underrated book, IMO.

I'll admit that I forgot most of those subclasses were in the Sword Coast book. Do you know why I forgot? Because they were reprinted in Xanathar's Guide. There's your way to bring them forward without having to muck around.

Though I will admit, a lot of my annoyance is specifically with those cantrips. I can't count how many times people have come up with interesting gish builds or subclasses and been shot down with "Not as good as the SCAG cantrips lol" replies. Also I foolishly tried playing an Undying Warlock in my first 5e campaign, before I'd gotten back up to speed on what was considered good and what wasn't, and that leaves a sting.

 

[jmartkdr2]

I'll admit that I forgot most of those subclasses were in the Sword Coast book. Do you know why I forgot? Because they were reprinted in Xanathar's Guide. There's your way to bring them forward without having to muck around.

Though I will admit, a lot of my annoyance is specifically with those cantrips. I can't count how many times people have come up with interesting gish builds or subclasses and been shot down with "Not as good as the SCAG cantrips lol" replies. Also I foolishly tried playing an Undying Warlock in my first 5e campaign, before I'd gotten back up to speed on what was considered good and what wasn't, and that leaves a sting.

The problem with a lot of homebrew gish options is that they're either OP or super-weak. The SCAG cantrips is really the only thing that we've seen which fulfills the two things people generally want form a gish:

1. Can blend magic and weapon-use.
2. Balanced with other options.

And it achieves #2 by being almost but not quite as good as Extra Attack.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'll admit that I forgot most of those subclasses were in the Sword Coast book. Do you know why I forgot? Because they were reprinted in Xanathar's Guide. There's your way to bring them forward without having to muck around.

Though I will admit, a lot of my annoyance is specifically with those cantrips. I can't count how many times people have come up with interesting gish builds or subclasses and been shot down with "Not as good as the SCAG cantrips lol" replies. Also I foolishly tried playing an Undying Warlock in my first 5e campaign, before I'd gotten back up to speed on what was considered good and what wasn't, and that leaves a sting.

Some of them are reprinted, sure. So what?

And was your experience playing an Undying Warlock actually negative? I enjoyed the hell out of the one I played.

 

[palikhov]

Ultimately I feel that a lot of this can be addressed by using the existing design space around Eldritch blast.

Pact of the Blade

Gain the Agonizing Blast invocation (or a different invocation if you already have it). Gain medium armor and shield proficiency.

As a free action you can summon a single blade of force in your hand. The blade has the throwing property.

The blades attack roll, damage, and number of attacks are the same as Eldritch blast. In addition, the blade has a +1 enhancement bonus, +1 for every 5 warlock levels. Any abilities that effect Eldritch blast also affect your blade.

The blade disappears when you summon a new one.


This version is simplier, and allows better scaling with existing invocations and abilities.

Maybe you are right. I wanted to get rid of Eldritch Blast for melee warlocks.