History Buffs: What if?

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Religion was never and would never be a small part of Roman life. Their entire social life and structure was built around religious rites. The importation of Greek philosophical/relgious cults, such as Stoicism and the Apollonian cult, that decried relgious ritual crippled their society and killed their political life.

Every third line of the Aeniad is about piety, and the Roman historians who chronicled the early history up through to the Julio-Claudian dynasty universally remark on the importance of piety to the Roman character, though they do dispute exactly what that piety consists of and does.

 

[s/LaSH]

I'm seeing an awful lot of 'wouldn't happen' and not a lot of 'would happen'. Admittedly, without a single superpower to unify and disseminate culture and technology , things don't look as shiny as the Great Republic. But my point is, Is there the chance that another world power might emerge from an unsuspected source?

You've got all these barbarians running around beating up civilisations in Europe, of course, but those barbarians inevitably learn a thing or two from their victims - or their victims become stronger. Don't underestimate technology or discipline in military matters. Either way, central Europe (Greater Poland? I know, no such thing but it's the general area) would likely become a smelting pot of cultures and maybe have some interesting results...

Around 500BC you had Buddha and Confucius, by the way. There's a couple of influential fellows.

Finally, what really happens if someone from the West contacts the Ultimate West (America)? You're looking at the Mayan civilisation in the 300-800AD period, as the undisputable highlight of the continent; they had warrior kings and an almost Babylonian structure to their civilisation (from the brief notes I've read so far). About the only thing they were missing was the wheel and big ships, and if someone pulled up off the coast in a galley I'm sure they'd be influenced. If trade started up, a Mayan sea power would be almost inevitable, thus no rise of the Toltecs, and thus no rise of the Aztecs. Further south, Andean civilisation wasn't particularly united or advanced - the Inca only came onto the scene in the 11th century.

I see Carthaginian explorers starting trade with the rich Mayan agriculturalists, and a reinvigorated Mayan civilisation expanding across the Americas. Alternatively, Carthage decides to invade the land of these savages, but needs to cover themselves against all the other Mediterranean powers (incidentally, the historical atlas I have lists the Mediterranean as the Mare Internum in 200AD). To facilitate this, some sort of Grand Alliance sends a force of mercenaries or excerpted legions from every Mare Internumic power over on Carthaginian ships and divides up the Americas (assuming they win the battles, and Europeans have advances like bows and chariots and metallurgy and elephants on their side). I don't think Carthage could do it on their own...

PS: What's the lingua franca of the period? The 'trade tongue' that everyone should know? Today it's English, a few centuries ago it was French (hence the phrase), even further back it was Latin - but without the Roman Republic conquering Europe, someone else would take center stage, probably the Greeks - their habit of colonising everything in sight combined with their arcane prowess in this model would make them highly in demand and welcome everywhere, although Carthaginian merchants would have a chance at becoming well-known too. Perhaps scholars speak Greek and merchants speak Carthagese (?) and nobles speak both?

 

[Felix]

Corey, what are you up to?

This smacks of "impact on my character".

As another poster pointed out, make only a few small changes, and see how that affects the rest of your world; then you can start making other changes. What eventually will happen is that something compelely different from the world we are in today will evolve. Maybe more tech advanced, maybe less.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

I've done a quick scan and cannot find the one word that immediately springs to my mind - Gaul.

If the Romans have an unconquered Carthage to worry about just across the Med., then chances are that they won't have the resources left for Julius C's adventures in northern France.

When noting this it is important to note that while the Romans considered the Gauls barbarians, they were a long way from primitive (one source I've read says that the Romans learnt iron working from the Gauls - especially in regards to armoury and weapon-smithing).

The Gauls had a sophisticated culture on the verge of genuine nationhood. If Rome's conquest had been delayed by even a generation, then there's a good chance they would have faced a literate, unified nation that probably would have resisted their incursion. Gallic culture, not britannic Celtic culture, would have dominated the north west of Europe.

This I think makes for a fascinating situation when the question is raised, would Gaul be able to resist the Germanic incursions better, worse or as well as Rome?

My 2c.

 

[Xeriar]

I'm seeing an awful lot of 'wouldn't happen' and not a lot of 'would happen'. Admittedly, without a single superpower to unify and disseminate culture and technology , things don't look as shiny as the Great Republic. But my point is, Is there the chance that another world power might emerge from an unsuspected source?

A new empire might form in Spain, or something in the region breaking off from Carthage, becoming even greater than Rome or Carthage would be.

Persia, Egypt and Greece would be vying for a lot of power in the east while this new power arose out of Spain, perhaps.

You've got all these barbarians running around beating up civilisations in Europe, of course, but those barbarians inevitably learn a thing or two from their victims - or their victims become stronger. Don't underestimate technology or discipline in military matters. Either way, central Europe (Greater Poland? I know, no such thing but it's the general area) would likely become a smelting pot of cultures and maybe have some interesting results...

You need fortifiable areas for that to take effect - Spain (Iberia), or France (if someone managed to unite the entire region ala Charlemagne) - most likely. England is a bit out of the way and Poland is just going to get ovverrun time and time again.

Italy was like this too, of course, and thus we had the Roman Empire - but in this scenario, Rome didn't-quite-make it as a -true- power... So something further west comes into being say, around 100 BCE.

Around 500BC you had Buddha and Confucius, by the way. There's a couple of influential fellows.

Persia is quite the buffer for Buddhism, and it's not exactly a militant religion at its core. It still didn't displace Hinduism...

Finally, what really happens if someone from the West contacts the Ultimate West (America)? You're looking at the Mayan civilisation in the 300-800AD period, as the undisputable highlight of the continent; they had warrior kings and an almost Babylonian structure to their civilisation (from the brief notes I've read so far). About the only thing they were missing was the wheel and big ships, and if someone pulled up off the coast in a galley I'm sure they'd be influenced. If trade started up, a Mayan sea power would be almost inevitable, thus no rise of the Toltecs, and thus no rise of the Aztecs. Further south, Andean civilisation wasn't particularly united or advanced - the Inca only came onto the scene in the 11th century.

The Incas were born out of several other civilizations from this area including an apparently important 'Lake Titicaca civilization'...

But this, also, seems plausible.

I see Carthaginian explorers starting trade with the rich Mayan agriculturalists, and a reinvigorated Mayan civilisation expanding across the Americas. Alternatively, Carthage decides to invade the land of these savages, but needs to cover themselves against all the other Mediterranean powers (incidentally, the historical atlas I have lists the Mediterranean as the Mare Internum in 200AD). To facilitate this, some sort of Grand Alliance sends a force of mercenaries or excerpted legions from every Mare Internumic power over on Carthaginian ships and divides up the Americas (assuming they win the battles, and Europeans have advances like bows and chariots and metallurgy and elephants on their side). I don't think Carthage could do it on their own...

Carthage is suffering from a dearth of resources, someone is going to usurp its power.

PS: What's the lingua franca of the period? The 'trade tongue' that everyone should know? Today it's English, a few centuries ago it was French (hence the phrase), even further back it was Latin - but without the Roman Republic conquering Europe, someone else would take center stage, probably the Greeks - their habit of colonising everything in sight combined with their arcane prowess in this model would make them highly in demand and welcome everywhere, although Carthaginian merchants would have a chance at becoming well-known too. Perhaps scholars speak Greek and merchants speak Carthagese (?) and nobles speak both?

Perhaps some derivative of what the Cathegians spoke, - Greek will remain an important language for some time.

 

[DanMcS]

PS: What's the lingua franca of the period? The 'trade tongue' that everyone should know? Today it's English, a few centuries ago it was French (hence the phrase), even further back it was Latin - but without the Roman Republic conquering Europe, someone else would take center stage, probably the Greeks - their habit of colonising everything in sight combined with their arcane prowess in this model would make them highly in demand and welcome everywhere, although Carthaginian merchants would have a chance at becoming well-known too. Perhaps scholars speak Greek and merchants speak Carthagese (?) and nobles speak both?

In real life, everyone east of the italian peninsula spoke Greek around the time we're discussing. The Greeks had conquored and traded for centuries (the Egyptian kings of the time were descended from Greeks), and this homogeneity of language and culture paved the way for later romanization. If the romans never rose, Greek would remain the most common language.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I don't really think Carthage is suffering from a dearth of resources. Northern Africa continued to be an incredibly wealthy and fertile area well into the high middle ages and Spain is filled with stuff. Not too mention they have better access to Britain and Gaul through the Atlantic.

I actually think the Germans will be less of a threat. Without the Roman Empire around to teach them how to fight and make armaments they will probably continue to be the semi-nomadic light weights with decent light infantry and cavalry that Ceasar encountered when he went up through Gaul.

In all likelihood they will simply be the western version of the Slavs. A delightful sometimes bloody people who simply pass the time till the next steppe nomad bad ass decides to play a game of smack the forest dweller.

I did mention Gaul, but I agree with the previous poster that various Celtic tribes are going to get a lot out of this. They already had great relations with the Carthaginians and Greeks and are only going to become more powerful as a result of their constant conflict with a weaker Rome. I would bet that they trounce everything till the Goths come along.

They may also find an amazing role for themselves as the slavers of Europe. The mediterranean civilizations need vast amounts of slaves, but their stale-mate against each other makes it difficult to acquire the outer provinces that provided them in real life. The Celts have great relationships with them, made fantastic slave coffers, loved raiding, and desired Roman goods.

More bad news for the Germans. Great for everyone else.

 

[s/LaSH]

Doesn't Celt mean 'metal-worker' or something? I have no basis for this, sorry. But I agree, Gauls and Celts would probably flourish if nobody was trying to kill them. The defensibility issue is a tricky one; Gaul borders on Rome and Iberia (Spain), which seem to be tricky areas for any invader to get by, but it's wide open along the Marseilles coast area (coughCarthage!) and what could be the Manigot Line (coughGermans, Franks etc).

Speaking of Franks, where are they at this point? 600AD... wouldn't they be coming onto the scene? Or have I overlooked a ripple effect?

Anyway... Carthaginian resource dearth. Suppose they used naval prowess to conquer Gaul (say by landing in Brittany under cover of a Corsican feint) and take their resources instead? Voila, Carthage more powerful. Or suppose they do die a slow resource death - the Gauls are too strong or something. What's to say they don't send out ships even earlier (in the BCs) and find the New World with no preeminent civilisation?

Just throwin' out ideas here...

 

[bwgwl]

What's to say they don't send out ships even earlier (in the BCs) and find the New World with no preeminent civilisation?

i read an alt.history once where some Carthiginian ships are blown off course in the Atlantic and land in Cuba. eventually the survivors form a little Caribbean empire in Cuba, Hispaniola, and other islands.

things get weird a few centuries later when the Aztecs learn metal-working from them...

i think it's in GURPS Alternate Earths I, but i can't remember for sure...

 

[fusangite]

To continue the theme of the Celts, perhaps the original Bohemia would survive as a Celtic, rather than Slavo-Celtic nation. However, I still maintain that the Germanic tribes would be a powerful and significant influence. Remember that it was the non-federati tribes that have been the most historically pivotal: the Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Swedes -- the most remote were actually the most historically influential. The federati vanished: there are no Vandals, Goths, etc. remaining in the world.

I agree that a very strong Greece is a possibility that is very reasonable, closely allied with a Greco-Pharonic Egypt. If one wanted to go that route, I might suggest a weird variant of the Orthodox Christian world with a Greco-Slavic empire or federation including Dalmatia, Pannonia, Illyria and the north and west shores of the Black Sea. To get really carried-away and silly, I can picture that instead of Hadrian's Wall, this world would have a gigantic, Chinese Great Wall equivalnt stretching from the Carpathian mountains to the Caucases protecting the breadbasket of the Greco-Slavic empire. After all, by 600, Alexander's reconstituted state would have had nearly 1000 years of existence.

Essentially, what I find interesting in your scenario is the idea that the Mediterranean could shut down the way it did in the so-called Dark Ages 500-700 years earlier. Such a change would have a massive impact on so many major civilizations. And I believe that all of them would respond the way Christendom and Islam did: by turning their backs on the sea and focusing inland. Such a development would retard some social development, increase the relevance of nomadic pastoral tribes and lead to an indigenization of culture in every region, unless, as was the case with Islam, they found another sea-ward orientation towards a developed area.

Based on this generalization, I'm inclined to place a lot of emphasis on the earlier manifestations of the rise to relevance of primitive pastoralists and raiders in the early medieval period and assume this occurred at an earlier point.