D&D 5E [Homebrew] − Rethinking the Ability Scores

[Mephista]

I would actually look into nine attributes. Three pillars - Social, Exploration, Combat. Each set of three stats would reflect a different pillar, physical, mental exercises like research / investigating / perception for exploration, and some in depth abilties for expanded social-fu. D&D gets away with just one social stat, but that's mostly the result of social getting very little emphasis in the rules. Willpower (ability to resist mental cooersion) is probably important too.

Size and speed, while probably should be a stat, I can't see as a major attribute. It basically ties into the same things that the physical attributes do. They're better as derived from the major physical attributes.

Appaerance has a problematic issue in most games it appears in, but there should be something similar. Appearace, pose, etc are as important as Charisma and charm.

 

[Yaarel]

[MENTION=6786252]Mephista[/MENTION]

For me, appearance is a feat. Something like ...

Beautiful (or if old school, call the feat Comeliness)
While target has you in sight, you gain advantage to Persuasion checks, and target suffers disadvantage to your Charm effects.

Grotesque
While target has you in sight, you gain advantage to Intimidation checks, and target suffers disadvantage to your Fear effects.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You have some repeats:

Perception
• Attack bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Attack bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
Intelligence
• Attack bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Attack bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)

What other ability mechanics are there that can (typically) happen during a combat encounter?

Chases. Dealing with animals?

If Education and Charm are the only magic abilities, then maybe decouple them somehow, so casters benefit from having high scores in both Education and Charm, similar to how warriors benefit from both Athletics and Size, and archers and assassins benefit from both Perception and Education.

Wizards use Education to determine number of spells they know/prepare but maybe Perception to determine how well they perform the intricate movements required to cast or aim them?

Druids base number of spells on their understanding of nature, or maybe their ability to perceive its connections and intricacies, but cast using Charm to persuade the spirits to do their bidding?
Clerics base their spells on their willpower and the eloquence of their prayers, but cast using their observation of portents and the situation at the time?
Or maybe gain spells based on their knowledge of holy writ but the power of their spells is fuelled by their will and the eloquence of their prayer?

Etc.

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

For the sake of comparison, permit me to organize the seven abilities as subsets of my ability fivesome in the original post. I further subdivided your seven for organizational purposes.
........................
Perception
• Dexterity-2 (manual dexterity, fine motor skills; bonus to ranged attack, but not to damage)
• Agility-2 (manual dexterity, slight of hand)

Education
• Intelligence (solving problems, learning, knowing, figuring things out)
• Awareness-1 (intuiting answers to solving problems)

It fits well as an alternative grouping, except for the Perception. I think agility should only effect athletics in your case, as aside from some defensive checks (avoid/dodge some threats) related to perception most of it's benefits are purely physical. It is essentially your reflexes. The speed of your neural synapses and the ability to control the reactions. The only benefit i could see it having toward say range attacks would be how quick you could reload, or change aim, but that would work for melee as well.

A small point on the education and casting. If you do decide to pull intelligence and awareness in the same pool, then make them different spell casting schools. One that governs classical DnD mages and the other classical Clerics (and Druids as their offshoots).

I think I understand what you are saying. I wonder if the way that I handle hit points now, is close enough to what you are trying to accomplish?
...................
Zero hit points is the only time real damage actually happens. This damage can threaten life − or limb. Any injury system only comes online if reaching zero hit points.

The end conclusion is the same (damage only happens at 0 HP/DP, but i think we are coming at it from different angles. In my case it is the HP level that determines if and how much DP can be utilized at the time. DP itself is much more lenient then health when restoration and "healing" is at stake. I purposely separate HP from DP, to allow for attrition warfare but not pushing the suspension of disbelief too much (like a dwarf fending off a band of goblins with an axe embedded in his head). Why i also try to provide is for a way that an injured character can still solder on, though in a diminished fashion. Notice how an exhausted or injured character can NOT have 100% DP, even with buffs and "healing". HP damage still does occur and when it does it's penalizing but in a way that immediately puts you out of action completely. What it does provide as well is a choice of weather you retreat to heal (in absence of magical healing, which should not be as common as DP "healing") to continue on. Retreating would mean (as you noted) quite a bit of time, time that may not be available for the quest to be completed. What this mechanism also provides for, is even more accent on resource management (second wind and hit dice - think of how Ki points and maneuver dice enrich the resource economy for the Monk and the Battlemaster, now everyone has it) and also a bit of an equalizer. Namely, now all classes have at least some access to self "healing" (as they did in 4E).

If Education and Charm are the only magic abilities, then maybe decouple them somehow, so casters benefit from having high scores in both Education and Charm, similar to how warriors benefit from both Athletics and Size, and archers and assassins benefit from both Perception and Education.

That is why i dispensed with Charm/Charisma and went with Presence. Presence could govern (an manifest) all casting based on the ability to project your inner strength outwards. Being either a Bard or Sorcerer should fit well into this archetype. On the other hand, awareness governs spiritual insight and discipline/instinct, thus more fitting for Clerics and Druids.

 

[Yaarel]

@TheLoneRanger1979

Sleight of ‘Hand’. When looking at this term, it seems like a synonym of ‘manual’ dexterity, suggesting fine motor skills. But that isnt at all how pickpocketing works. Pickpocketing is crashing into an unsuspecting target, whisking away any pocket contents, while apologizing profusely to distract the target, then walking away to vanish into crowds before the target makes sense of what just happened. It does require some ‘finesse’, but this is the kind that belongs to the gross motor skills. As per your suggestion, I am updating the previous post to move Sleight of Hand to the Athletics cluster along with the rest of the Agility cluster.



Regarding Cleric magic.

‘Intuition’ is a form of Intelligence. Some of the greatest rationalists are extremely intuitive in discerning their logic, such as Leonardo di Vinci, Newton, Einstein, and others. Intelligence is a way of discerning and comprehending information.

In this light, I am going to change the name of the ‘Education’ ability cluster, to ‘Intelligence’, to make it clearer that it encompasses all forms of intuition (except intuition regarding social skills). Even people who have ‘good instincts’ but not ‘book smart’, are still ‘smart’, a way of being intelligent.

If the magic of the Cleric derives from being ‘intuitive’, then it would be Intelligence magic. If it derives from engaging the transpersonal dynamics of a spiritual community, then it would be Charisma magic.


Post Script. Education→Intelligence. Alas! My precious acronym ASPECT has become ASPICT.

 

[Yaarel]

[MENTION=6804148]TheLoneRanger1979[/MENTION]

So, splitting Hit Points into ‘Defense Points’ and ‘Meat Points’.

The following is an idea I came up with last year.


All of the bonus hit points that come from Size/Constitution are ‘meat points’.

All of the standard hit points that come from leveling a Class are ‘defense points’.

The split works best with 4e hit point style, using the Constitution score up front, rather than its bonus at each level.



At ‘Level 0’, a character has a number of hit points equal to the Size/Constitution *score*.

So a character with a Size/Constitution score of 15 automatically starts with 15 ‘meat points’.

On top of the ‘meat points’,
• The Fighter class adds its hit points as additional 1d10 ‘defense points’, at each level.
• The Wizard class adds its hit points as additional 1d6 ‘defense points’, at each level.
And so on.

So there are two hit point pools: defense pool from class, followed by meat pool from Size/Constitution.

While the ‘defense points’ are taking hits, the character successfully avoids injury. There is some contact, but it is negligible − some scratches and reddness. The character generally shows no signs of injury. The character is ‘fresh’.

However, once the ‘defense points’ run out, then the fatigue and sloppiness set in and the defenses drop, and the ‘meat points’ become vulnerable.

Any damage to the ‘meat points’ of the Size/Constitution score, means the character has become ‘bloodied’. This is when a black eye can happen, and when the nicks and scrapes drip blood. The burns will blister.

By definition, it is impossible to lose ‘meat points’ until the ‘defense points’ are at zero.

As the meat points take hits, the character becomes noticeably beat-up. And will need first aid.

When the meat points reach zero, a fatal hit has occurred. This is the proverbial ‘sword thru the heart’. Now the ‘life and limb’ of the character is now at risk. The character is ‘downed’.

Even so, the downed character isnt necessarily dying, or even unconscious. It depends where the character got the injury. It may be the opponent intentionally attacked the character nonlethally, and now the character at 0 meat points is merely knocked out, unconscious. It may be, the injury was to the right leg. The leg might be sprained, or broken, or at its most extreme, the leg may have been amputated, and the blood loss causes death. The death saves determine the extent of the damage to the leg.

If the character wins every death save, the injury heals in about 1d8 days, and there wont even be a scar. If the character makes a single failed save, it will take 1d8 weeks to heal, impaired use of the damaged location until then, and there will be a scar. If the character fails twice, it will take 1d8 months to heal, and no use of the damage location until then. Three fails kills, usually from system shock from blood loss.

Lethal damage can look like the following. A slash damage type will flow with blood. A fire damage type is a third degree burn. A bludgeon damage type a blackening contusion of internal tissue hemorrhage. A broken limb is a compound fracture, with bones sticking out. And so on.

When a character is downed at zero meat points, the DM adjudicates from the narrative where the injury seems most likely to occur. A character downed by drowning, will obviously have the injury to the lungs. If the location seems random, such as during a tumultuous battle or falling down a mountain, then the DM may want to roll a d20 to determine where the injury happened.

Random location of injury d20
(1-4 Head, 5-7 Chest, 8-9 Abdomen, 10-15 Arm or Shoulder, 16-20 Leg or Buttock)

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

@TheLoneRanger1979

Sleight of ‘Hand’. When looking at this term, it seems like a synonym of ‘manual’ dexterity, suggesting fine motor skills. But that isnt at all how pickpocketing works.

I think i may have chosen the wrong words. I really meant the act of moving the hands/fingers so fast that others have difficulties tracking them, or noticing what's going on.

@TheLoneRanger1979




Regarding Cleric magic.

‘Intuition’ is a form of Intelligence. Some of the greatest rationalists are extremely intuitive in discerning their logic, such as Leonardo di Vinci, Newton, Einstein, and others. Intelligence is a way of discerning and comprehending information.

Well, there is no reason why a person can't be both intelligent and intuitive. But also:

@TheLoneRanger1979

In this light, I am going to change the name of the ‘Education’ ability cluster, to ‘Intelligence’, to make it clearer that it encompasses all forms of intuition (except intuition regarding social skills). Even people who have ‘good instincts’ but not ‘book smart’, are still ‘smart’, a way of being intelligent.

If the magic of the Cleric derives from being ‘intuitive’, then it would be Intelligence magic. If it derives from engaging the transpersonal dynamics of a spiritual community, then it would be Charisma magic.


Post Script. Education→Intelligence. Alas! My precious acronym ASPECT has become ASPICT.

This works as well!

[MENTION=6804148]TheLoneRanger1979[/MENTION]

So, splitting Hit Points into ‘Defense Points’ and ‘Meat Points’.

The following is an idea I came up with last year.


All of the bonus hit points that come from Size/Constitution are ‘meat points’.

All of the standard hit points that come from leveling a Class are ‘defense points’.

The split works best with 4e hit point style, using the Constitution score up front, rather than its bonus at each level.



At ‘Level 0’, a character has a number of hit points equal to the Size/Constitution *score*.

So a character with a Size/Constitution score of 15 automatically starts with 15 ‘meat points’.

On top of the ‘meat points’,
......snip.......

That sounds quite similar to what i have in mind. I mind borrow some of your ideas when fleshing out the system

 

[Yaarel]

Its a good hit point system: fresh defense points from class, bloodied meat points from Size/Constitution, and an injury at zero hit points when downed.

The injury system needs tweaking. The body locations are good (and I have a more detailed d20 table, deriving from combat and accident statistics). But the severity of the injury needs tweaking. It seems like the death saves are too drastic, like one is just as likely to die as to break a bone. Maybe some kind of gradation that looks more like the exhaustion table might work better, making it more likely for something in between bruise or dead.

 

[Yaarel]

In Post#10, the list of combat mechanics according to the ability fivesome, is looking pretty good. I added a couple more things, and updated the Original Post with it.


[sblock=The Original Post used to look like this]

Athletics Score
• Attack bonus to melee. (Now standard weapons and finesse use the same ability for attack).
• Attack bonus to thrown weapons, like axe, boulder, and dagger.
• Checks to jump, climb, swim, and if applicable run, even fly by wings.
• Checks for bodily agility and mobility, for anything related to sports, gymnastics, etcetera.
• For completion, Athletics includes balance, running across tree limbs, brachiation, catching oneself before a fall, maneuvering a dive, rolling a landing from a fall, and so on.
• Reflex save to dodge.
• Endurance save versus fatigue.

Size Score
• Damage bonus to melee, like sword or kick. (Maybe not light or finesse weapons.)
• Damage bonus to thrown weapons, like axe or boulder. (Maybe not light or finesse).
• Reach in melee combat.
• Hit point bonus (where the body mass is tough to absorb impact, and little things are squishy).
• Access to heavy weapons.
• Access to heavy armor.
• (Maybe) lift and carry bonus; bigger bodies carry more.

Perception Score
• Attack bonus to missiles, like bows and guns, where steady hands and keen aim matter.
• Attack bonus to surprise sneak attacks, where target is unaware or helpless.
• Perception checks of physical senses to notice faint stimuli: sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch.
(Even if perceived, perceivers might not recognize what they are looking at. See Education.)
• Perception save versus invisibility, hiddenness, darkness, fogginess. (Or passive defense.)
• Stealth bonus, to become less noticeable, move quietly, stay out of sight of target.
• Precision checks for tasks that require slow precise cautious movement.
• Bonus versus being surprised.
• Bonus to surprise.
• Checks for manual dexterity, alchemical measuring, craftsmanship, artistic technical skill.

Education Score
• (Maybe) damage bonus to missile weapons, such as bows and guns, where intelligence and training learns what to aim for and how to optimize trajectories.
• (Maybe) damage bonus to surprise sneak attack, versus target that is unaware or helpless.
• Damage bonus if successfully exploiting a vulnerability in a target.
• Knowledge checks to recognize vulnerability in target.
• Knowledge checks to recognize, investigate, or figure out an ambiguous perception.
• Access to complex technology or its equivalent.
• Book smarts.
• Bluff check; know enough about something to fake it, do forgery, fraud, or plausible falsehood.

Charm Score
• Social skills; including checks for persuasion, intimidation, and leadership to inspire.
• Saves versus persuasion and intimidation, charm and fear.
• Emotional intelligence; including empathy and insight into motivations of others.
• For completeness, includes academic discussions about psychology (instead of Education).
• Bonus to casting magical charm and fear, and similar.
• Will saves, sense of self, larger-than-life personal presence, willpower, personal magic.
• Telepathic combat if applicable.

Tier Score
• (Tier isnt really an ability, but represents general experience and ways to compensate for weaknesses, and comes with leveling, so is moreorless the same thing as the Proficiency bonus. Heh, but if I add a ‘T’, then the acronym becomes ASPECT. The combat ‘aspect’ quantifies the combat experience of a character.)



Interestingly, these five abilities − Athletics, Size, Perception, Education, and Charm − correspond to the trope of the ‘Five Guy Band’: Jock Guy, Protector Guy, Rogue Guy, Smart Guy, and Heart Guy, respectively. So this ability set may resonate with useful archetypes.

[/sblock]

[sblock=Now the Original Post looks like this]

Athletics
Body mobility, coordination, jump, tumble, speed, fitness, stamina, and gross motor skills.
• attack bonus to melee attack
• attack bonus to thrown weapon
• attack bonus to unarmed attack
• attack bonus to grapple versus Size
• attack bonus to shove versus Size
• Initiative bonus
• gymnastic check to jump, climb
• gymnastic check to catch from falling, or to roll landing after falling
• gymnastic tumble movement thru hostile space
• gymnastic check to balance, during movement or keeping still
• gymnastic check to perform a stunt
• bonus to charge attack
• reflex save to dodge to avoid hit
• quick draw
• sleight of hand (pickpocketing, distracting audience while finessing a legerdemain trick)
• AC bonus if no armor, or light or medium
• stamina check for lengthy endurance exercise

Size
Size, brute force, and toughness.
• damage bonus to melee attack
• damage bonus to unarmed attack
• damage bonus to thrown weapon (but not light weapon)
• bonus to resist shove
• bonus to break out of gappling hold
• hit point bonus while leveling
• prereq to use heavy weapons
• prereq to use heavy armors
• reach
• bonus to push
• lift, carry, push, pull
• fortitude save to withstand punishment
• hit dice to recover from combat

Perception
Physical senses, slow sensitive movements, precision, steady hand, and fine motor skills.
• Perception versus Stealth to determine surprise
• Attack bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Attack bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Passive perception defense versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Perception check versus hidden, invisible, obscured, faint
• Stealth check to hide, move quietly
• Medicine check to stabilize dying
• Manual dexterity check to disable a trap
• Manual dexterity check to set a trap
• Disguise check to sculpt a convincing mask or replicate a forgery
• Perception check to see thru disguise
• Disbelieve save versus illusion
• Illusion sensory magic

Intelligence
Ways of knowing, intuition, discernment, education, memory, calculation, and anticipation.
• Damage bonus to ranged attack (bow, crossbow, gun)
• Damage bonus versus unaware or helpless (including Sneak Attack)
• Knowledge check for weakness in target (low ability, damage type vulnerability)
• Knowledge check to discern if creature is Undead
• After Perception: Investigate check to recognize/discern what is going on from obscure clue
• Deception check to falsify plausible information
• Lucidity save versus confusion
• Intuition check to get a ‘vibe’, or discern/deduce a special insight, for unknown situation
• Arcane check to identify spell effects
• Wizard scholarly magic
• Cleric intuitive magic

Charm
Social skills, sense of self, empathy, willpower, and influence.
• Willpower save versus charm, fear, domination
• Sanity save versus madness, corruption, etcetera
• Persuasion check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Intimidation check to avoid combat, end combat, or gain ally in combat
• Empathy insight check to identify mood and motive
• Performance check to distract a targets attention
• Check to find best person to talk to to extract information
• Inspiration to boost morale
• Bard social magic
• Paladin willpower magic

[/sblock]

 

[Yaarel]

Chases. Dealing with animals?

How do you handle chases? It seems like an Athletics thing.



For animals, I find them relatively emotionally intelligent. So it is moreorless a straightforward Charm check to persuade or intimidate the animal. At least for mammals.

Crocodiles and snakes might be different, maybe its an Intelligence nature check, because you just happen to know that if you rub an alligators belly, it will fall asleep. Of course wrestling the alligator to get to its belly, is the challenge.


[MENTION=6786252]Mephista[/MENTION]

Definitely, I want to handle all three pillars: Combat, Social, and Exploration.

Combat is the highest priority, because so much of D&D revolves around it.

But Social is important to me. After combat seems sorted out, I want to see Social work well, with interesting, salient, and equally good choices.