Originally posted by zachariah:Intro:The assassin, as represented in 3.5, just didn’t seem to cut it. So, lately I have been working on a base class that combines the stealth and theme of the assassin with the fancy maneuvers system from the Bo9S. Which resulted in the Martial Assassin. But with that came another thing; the only discipline that went together with the assassin theme seemed to be Shadow Hand. So, I started designing a new discipline, which resulted in the Black Lotus Discipline. I used the ToB as a standard for balance. I must note, this is the second version (First version posted here, though) and it not compleetly finished yet, only did the class design so far. I would like to receive feedback. What do you think about the concept, balance or anything else? Especially balance, because I’m actually pretty inexperienced with playing the game itself, and thus based everything on comparing and theory
I just like designing classes I guess.Btw im new to these forums.. so, greetings everyone!
The Martial Assassin
Made by alcomandoHD: d8Alignment: Non-good, non-chaotic.BAB: 3/4 (as Rogue)High save: ReflexThe assassin’s class skills are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.Maneuvers<br />Level K R S Specials<br />1 4 3 1 Sneak Attack +1d6, Weapon of Choice (Focus)<br />2 5 3 2 Uncanny Dodge<br />3 6 4 2 Poison Use<br />4 7 4 2 Sneak Attack +2d6<br />5 8 4 3 Subtlety +2<br />6 8 5 3 Evasion<br />7 9 5 3 <br />8 10 5 3 Weapon of Choice (Specialization)<br />9 11 6 4 Sneak Attack +3d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge<br />10 11 6 4 Shadow Blend<br />11 12 6 4 Subtlety +4<br />12 13 7 4 Mind Veil<br />13 14 7 5 <br />14 14 7 5 Hide in Plain Sight, Sneak Attack +4d6<br />15 15 8 5 <br />16 16 8 5 Weapon of Choice (Greater Focus)<br />17 17 8 5 Subtlety +6<br />18 17 9 6 Improved Evasion<br />19 18 9 6 Sneak Attack +5d6<br />20 19 9 6 Assassin's PromiseK: Maneuvers knownR: Maneuvers ReadiedS: Stances knownClass FeaturesThe following are class features of the Martial Assassin.Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Martial Assassin’s weapon training focuses on several exotic blade weapons, suitable for stealth and sneak attacks. Martial Assassins are proficient with all simple weapons plus the jitte, katana, ninja-to, sai, short sword (any type), rapier. Martial Assassins are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.Weapon of Choice: At 1st level, a Martial Assassin may choose one of the weapons associated with the Black Lotus or Shadow Hand discipline. He gains the Weapon Focus feat with that weapon. At 8th level the Martial Assassin gains the Weapon Specialization feat with his chosen weapon. At 16th level he gains the Greater Weapon Focus feat with his chosen weapon.Poison Use: Martial Assassins are trained in the use of poison and never risk to accidently poison themselves when applying poison to a blade.Subtlety: At 6th level, a Martial Assassin gains a +2 bonus to Hide, Move Silently and Sleight of Hand checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 17th level.Shadow Blend: At 10th level, a martial Assassin can use the Hide skill in any sort of shadow, even if it doesn’t grant him cover or concealment. The shadow must be large enough to accommodate his body surface. Shadow Blend can only be used if you are wearing light armor or no armor.Mind Veil: At 12th level, a Martial Assassin gains the ability to shield his mind al forms of divination, as if he were permanently under the effect of a undetectable alignment spell. The caster level for this effect is equal to your Character level.Hide in Plain Sight: At 14th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in open without having anything to actually hide behind.Improved Evasion: This ability, gained at 18th level, works like evasion. A Martial Assassin takes no damage at all on a successful saving throw against attacks that allow a Reflex saving throw for damage. In addition, he takes only halve damage even if he fails his saving throw.Assassin’s Promise: A Martial Assassin of 20th level gains the ability to ensure his assassination skills. He gains a +20 insight bonus on a single sneak attack. In addition, the sneak attack is considered maximized (as if the maximize spell feat is applied to the sneak attack bonus dice). However, any extra dice granted by maneuvers are unaffected. Using this ability, the Martial Assassin can enhance his sneak attack up to 3 times per day. The Martial Assassin must declare the use of this ability before rolling any attack dice.Black LotusThis secret discipline focuses on stealth, poison and assassination techniques. The key skill for Black Lotus is Sleight of Hand. Black Lotus favored weapons include the dagger (any type), ninja-to and short sword (any type). Initiating Black Lotus boosts that enhance your sneak attack prevent you from using any other maneuvers that turn.Level 1Eyes of the Unseen: (Stance) ─ Gain darkvision 60 ft.Nerve Stab: (Strike) ─ Deal +1d6 and may cause fatigue.Poison Swap: (Boost) ─ Apply poison to your blades as a free action.Level 2Bloodstainer: (Boost) ─ Your sneak attack dice is doubled and deals +1/ initiator level.Elusive Mind: (Counter) ─ Use Sleight of Hand check in place of a Will save.Relentless Strikes: (Boost) ─ +1 bonus to your sneak attacks, allows you to make a sneak attack during your next round.Level 3Cruel Thrust: (Strike) ─ Deal +3d6, increases your melee weapons threat range by 4.Enduring Venom: (Counter) ─ Force reroll against your poison with a -2 penalty.Way of the Unseen: (Stance) ─ Take no penalty to Hide and Move Silently checks when moving at any speed up to your normal speed, and only take a -10 penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when running.Level 4Fading Petal: (Counter) ─ Disarm a missing attack with a Sleight of Hand check.Garrote: (Boost) ─ Your next sneak attack deals +4d6 and may hinder the targets ability to speak.Tainted Blades: (Boost) ─ Attacks deal +2d6 damage and grants a +4 DC to poison save. If the target was already poisoned it takes an additional +1 / initiator points damage.Level 5Death Shroud: (Stance) ─ Foes within 15 ft. are unable to heal by any means; you become immune to fear.Malicious Strike: (Strike) ─ Deal +5d6 damage, increases your melee weapons threat range by 4 and critical multiplier by 1.Shifting Blades: (Counter) ─ Counter an attack of opportunity.Level 6Blade of the Unseen: (Boost) ─ Your next melee sneak attack deals +5d6 damage, and may blind foe for 1d4 rounds.Revealing Fury: (Boost) ─ Gain an extra attack with each weapon and make a Sleight of Hand check to cause the target to become flat-footed against your next turn attack.Level 7Black Venom Thrust: (Strike) ─ Successful attack grants your Dex modifier to the DC to resist your poisons, target must instantly roll for secondary poison damage.Eyes of Massacre: (Stance) ─ Doubles the critical threat range when using light melee weapons.Twisting Fang: (Strike) ─ Increases your melee weapons threat range by 6 and critical multiplier by 2, deal Constitution damage on crit.Level 8Black Lotus Eclipse: (Boost) ─ Your next melee sneak attack deals +5d8 damage, and may paralyze the target for 1d3 rounds.Cremator: (Strike) ─ Deal +8d6 acid damage, and target takes 1d6 acid damage per round for 3 rounds. Causes the targets body to dissolve on death.Veil of Deception: (Counter) ─ Add half your Sleight of Hand ranks to AC and cause target to become flat-footed against your next turn attack.Level 9Death Seal Strike: (Boost) ─ Your sneak attack slays your target with a single strike.Originally posted by zachariah:Following is the more compleet discription of the maneuvers. I have everything written up in a word doc, in a more official layout. I'll try to add those in some way.Eyes of the UnseenLevel: Black Lotus 1 (Stance)As long as you are in this stance, you gain darkvision out to 60 feet. If you already have darkvision it’s range increases by 60 feet.Nerve StabLevel: Black Lotus 1 (Strike)Saving Throw: Fortitude partialAs part of this maneuver, you make single melee attack. If successful, your opponent suffers an extra +1d6 damage, and must make a Fort save (DC 11 + Dex modifier) or become Fatigued for 1d4 rounds.Poison SwapLevel: Black Lotus 1 (Boost)Until the end of your turn, you may apply a poison to your weapons as a free action. You don’t risk poisoning yourself when using this maneuver.BloodstainerLevel: Black Lotus 2 (Boost)Your next melee sneak attack has its base number of bonus dice doubled (to a maximum number of dice equal to half your initiator level) and adds 1 point of damage per initiator level.Elusive MindLevel: Black Lotus 2 (Counter)Prerequisite: One Black Lotus maneuverYou can use the maneuver any time you would be required to make a Will save. Roll a Sleight of Hand check instead of the Will save and use the result of that check to determine the saves successfulness. You must use this maneuver before you roll the Will save. A result of a natural 1 on your Sleight of Hand check is not an automatic failure.Relentless StrikesLevel: Black Lotus 2 (Boost)Until the end of your turn, your melee sneak attacks gain a +1 insight bonus to attack. If any of your sneak attacks hit, your opponent will be considered flat-footed against your first next turn melee attack.Cruel ThrustLevel: Black Lotus 3 (Strike)As part of this maneuver, you make single melee attack. If successful, your opponent suffers an extra +3d6 points of damage. When using a light melee weapon while initiating this maneuver, the weapons threat range increases by 2. This effect stacks with other effects that increase threat range.Enduring VenomLevel: Black Lotus 3 (Counter)You can use this maneuver to reroll any failed attempt to poison your foe. Your opponent must reroll his save with a -2 penalty.Way of the UnseenLevel: Black Lotus 3 (Stance)While you are in this stance, you take no penalty to Hide and Move Silently checks when moving at any speed up to your normal speed, and only takes -10 penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when running. In addition you may always choose to take 10 on a Hide and Move Silently check.Fading PetalLevel: Black Lotus 4 (Counter)Whenever an opponent attacks you and misses, you can initiate this maneuver as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Sleight of Hand check succeeds, you disarm your opponent. If you fail, your opponents attack is considered successful.You cannot initiate this maneuver if your are considered flat-footed against the incoming attack.GarroteLevel: Black Lotus 4 (Boost)Saving Throw: Fortitude partialUntil the end of your turn, your melee sneak attack deals an additional 3d6 points of damage and the opponent must make a successful Fort save (DC 14 + Dex modifier) or become temporary hindered to speak. For the next 1d4 +1 rounds, the target takes a -5 penalty on any skill check requiring speech and has a 50% chance of failure when casting a spell with verbal commands.Tainted BladeLevel: Black Lotus 4 (Boost)Until the end of turn each of your melee attacks deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. If your weapons are poisoned the DC for resisting poison is increased by 4. If the target was already poisoned your attacks deal an additional +1 points of damage per initiator level. This boost doesn’t apply to natural attacks.Death ShroudLevel: Black Lotus 5 (Stance)Range: 15 ft. RadiusAll enemies within 15 ft. radius are unable to gain hit points by any means. Heal checks automatically fail. In addition, you become immune to fear effects. The effect of this stance applies only to living creatures – undead, constructs and incorporeal creatures are unaffected. This stance is a supernatural ability.Malicious StrikeLevel: Black Lotus 5 (Strike)As part of this maneuver, you make single melee attack. If successful, your opponent suffers an extra +5d6 points of damage. When using a light melee weapon while initiating this maneuver, the weapons threat range increases by 4 and multiplier by 1 (to a maximum multiplier of 4). This effect stacks with other effects that increase threat range.Shifting BladesLevel: Black Lotus 5 (Counter)Whenever an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you, you can initiate this maneuver as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Sleight of Hand check succeeds, your opponent misses and you make an attack of opportunity against your attacker. If your check fails, you gain a -2 penalty to AC and your opponent resolves his attack of opportunity normally. Blade of the UnseenLevel: Black Lotus 6 (Boost)Saving Throw: Fortitude partialYour next melee sneak attack deals an extra 5d6 points of damage and your opponent must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 16 + your Dex modifier) or become blinded for 1d4 +1 rounds. Revealing FuryLevel: Black Lotus 6 (Boost)After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield. These attacks are made with the highest attack modifier for each of your respective weapons. All of these attacks must be directed against the same opponent. If any of your attacks hit this turn, you make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by your opponent's AC. If successful your opponent is considered flat-footed against your next turn melee attacks.For each attack that hits you gain a +1 insight bonus to the Sleight of Hand check made to confirm the secondary effect of this maneuver. These stack among themselves.Black Venom ThrustLevel: Black Lotus 7 (Strike) As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If your weapons are poisoned, you add you Dexterity modifier (if positive) to the DC for resisting your poison. If the target fails the save, he must immediately roll for the secondary poison damage (normal DC). This boost doesn’t apply to natural attacks.Eye of MassacreLevel: Black Lotus 7 (Stance)This stance doubles the critical threat range when using light melee weapons. This effect stacks with other effects that increase threat range. In addition, you get a competence bonus on confirming critical hits equal to one fifth your Sleight of Hand ranks, rounded down.Twisting FangLevel: Black Lotus 7 (Strike) As part of this maneuver, you make single melee attack. When using a light melee weapon while initiating this maneuver, the weapons threat range increases by 6 and multiplier by 2 (to a maximum multiplier of 4). This effect stacks with other effects that increase threat range. If this strike results in a critical hit you deal an extra 2 points of Constitution damage, and causes the target to bleed for 1d4 points of damage each round at the start of its turn. Until the target receives the benefit of a DC 15 Heal check or any cure spell or similar magical healing. If you fail to critical hit, but succeed to hit your target, you deal an extra 6d6 points of damage.Black Lotus EclipseLevel: Black Lotus 8 (Boost)Saving Throw: Fortitude partialYour next melee sneak attack deals an extra 5d8 points of damage and your opponent must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 18 + your Dex modifier) or become paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. CrematorLevel: Black Lotus 8 (Strike)As part of this maneuver, you make single melee attack. If successful, it deals an extra 8d6 points of damage. In addition, if this attack hits, the blood of the target turns highly acidic, the victim takes an extra 1d6 points of acid damage each round at the start of its turn for 3 rounds. If this attack kills the target or it dies within the 3 rounds, the body dissolves, leaving only a pile of organic carbonized ooze. Creatures killed while under the effect of this strike can only be returned to life by true resurrection and wish.Veil of DeceptionLevel: Black Lotus 8 (Counter)If your opponent attacks you, you can initiate this maneuver. You add halve your Sleight of Hand ranks to AC. If the attack fails, your opponent’s round ends and he becomes flat-footed against your next melee attack. This attack must take place before or on your next turn to gain the benefit of this maneuver. You cannot initiate this maneuver if your are considered flat-footed against the incoming attack.Death Seal Strike:Level: Black Lotus 9 (Boost)Saving Throw: Fortitude partialWith a single strike of lethal precision, you pierce your enemy in a vital point. A combination of dark malicious energy and vile poisons is channeled through your blade, disrupting the life force running through your enemy’s veins. Its internal organs instantly start to shut down, causing it to drop to its knees… dying.Your next melee sneak attack gains a +1 bonus to attack. If your sneak attack hits, the target must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 19 + Dex modifier). If the save fails, your target drops to -8 hit points, then -9 hit points at the end of this round. If someone immediately makes a successful Heal check (DC 19) or somehow gives the target more hit points, he stabilizes. Otherwise, at the end of the next round, the target reaches -10 hit points and dies. If the save is successful, you deal an extra 15d6 points of damage and causes the target to be Dazed for one round. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the death effect of this maneuver.Originally posted by hanzo187:Wow. This is pretty impressive. To be frank, I might actually take this class over my own Sublime Ninja. I'd take half Sneak Attack over full full Sudden Strike any day. Your homebrew discipline also plays well to your Assassin, and maybe the Swordsage, as well. I like the Sleight of Hand Skill, anyway, so it appeals to me.The capstone is pretty good, but you don't need to worry about talking about the crit part relative to Sneak Attack because the bonus damage from SA isn't multiplied by a crit anyway.However, I should tell you that you should probably take out UMD. That Skill is very much the Rogue's turf, and it's probably the powerful Skill in D&D. Since your class already has plenty of mystical abilities the Rogue can't begin to touch, UMD is largely unnecessary (and maybe a little overpowered). You may also want to stick in Trapfinding if you're going to give the Assassin Disable Device as well, if not just to make life easier.Oh, and proficiencies?Overall, very well made.
Originally posted by zachariah:Thanks for the feedback
Yes, it could be used by a swordsage aswell. Although he would have to get acces to sneak attack in order to benefit from all the discipline's skills. This, ofcourse, can easily be done just by taking the assassin's stance maneuver from the shadow hand discipline, or just by multiclassing.About the capstone. Actually after reading your comment I also realized that you would still be required to confirm the crit. It actually fits the skill quite well! So ill remove that part. (I'll put it in a quote on the bottom of this post, so other can see how it was)I totally agree with Use Magic Device, the only reason its in there is because I just overlooked it
anyway, ill remove it. Im not shure about adding trap finding, I believe that should be left to rogues... I might aswell remove disable device aswell. Doesnt fit the class well that well, IMO.Forgot to add the proficiencies to the post *goes copy/pasting them from .doc*Would changing, for the Mind Veil ability, Undetectable Alignment to Nondetection be to much?
But again, very good!Originally posted by unundindur:Minor thingie: Death seal strike should be a strike, not a boost 
Originally posted by zachariah:
sublime assasin might be better name but meh. not really important.2:whats a martial assasins recovery action for manuevers?3:Whats the associated skill for black lotus?4:This class rocks! i think i might use this.Originally posted by runestar:Will the ability to treat a single attack as a natural 20 have any problems with other abilities that operate off them, such as a vorpal weapon? True, it just means that you can instant-kill 1 foe/day, but it could still be troublesome nonetheless...Originally posted by zachariah:
Btw: It was initially called Black Lotus Assassin, but that sounded to much like a PrC to me, so I decided to call the school Black Lotus2: Havent thought about that one yet, forgot about it tbh. I'll go work on that soon, aswell as the discipline feats.3: Its Sleight of Hand, which is noted in the first post right under the Black Lotus maneuver summery 4: Sweet, thanks! I would love to have others playtest it!
Originally posted by Endarrion:After glancing over it, the only thing I would suggest is changing the stance progression so the class isn't stuck with a 1st level stance until 9th level.Originally posted by zachariah:
I would say, go right ahaid.
Originally posted by zachariah:
I havent thought about it. Maybe, when I feel its finished, I will. Sofar I have everything in a .doc file, already in the correct layout. So, I might aswell.Originally posted by neveroth:
Originally posted by zachariah:Ok, sounds handy. When I feel its ready, ill let them have their way with the precious assassin.Originally posted by periscope:This class is awesome but a few nitpickins`:1) Why the alignment restrictions? I mean if you actually did kill someone for gold then you'd be evil, but the class itself just seems really focused on stealth and "one hit one kill" maneuvers. I mean a rogue or a swordsage can sneak around and kill people for money, but they dont carry an evil (or nongood) alignment with them based on these abilities and their are plenty of times when the assassins skills can be used for good (The evil warlord was found dead this morning in his bedroom with a dagger thrust through his heart. He apparently never woke up and beside his bed was a note which says "Justice dwells in darkness". Back to you Tom).2) You've failed to list which schools that they have access to. You've said that they have access to the black lotus and the shadow hand school but they don't actually have their schools known listed in their class description.3) Why only 2 schools? I havent seen a good Bo9S class (in the books or on the boards) that didnt have access to at least 3 schools. I would suggest Diamond Mind (the focused aspect of it), Tiger Claw (the ability to "sniff" them out and the fact that their 9th level maneuver would really sinc up well with this for just shear "your gonna die" deal), or Stone Dragon (the extra damage could be represented by striking the proper points on a body to rupture internal organs. and it will help insure that you wont be stuck in a cell "what wall? BAM!").Originally posted by zachariah:1) Well, for the non-good part, an assassin's soul purpose is killing. I believe that such a person can't be good aligned. The original assassin's killed for political and religious reasons, and later also military ones. They became know as powerful political tools, defined as a Hired emissary that has taken upon him the deed to take the life by means of treacherous violence.I see one as such, and they make a pact with whoever is hiring them. So, that’s why I put those alignment restrictions. Although, I could remove the non-chaotic part and put in some text (like in a lot of the books do) that most assassins are non-chaotic because they make a pact etc.. etc..2) True, I still have to add that and I'll try to do so tonight. Same goes for the maneuver recovery action, and some feats maybe.3) I didn’t add other schools because they didn’t seem to fit my idea of the assassin. Tiger Claw is to primal/strength focused, not in anyway stealthy. Black Lotus already has it's own “im going to kill you” moves, especially the 9th level. Stone Dragon seems more like the tank/brute force school to me. Doesn’t fit at all, IMO. Diamond Mind, possibly... I just don’t believe its necessary. Besides, just because the ToB presented classes have access to at least 3 schools isn’t a legit reason to give this class access to 3 or more. I don’t believe it needs it either. This is something that can be house ruled easily as well.Thanks for sharing your thoughts! also nice to hear that you like it overall
Originally posted by hanzo187:
)i also would toss my vote in objection to the alignment restrictions... let people make their own mind up on why they kill... who says they can't be an assassin of a good god who only kills clerics of Lloth or something. same thing with being lawful... if they work for the secret police of an evil government they certainly could be LE. i understand what your concept of an assassin is i just think that you should let the player decide the fluff of his character.i love that the 9th level manuever is a boost, however at the same time it really opens up for abuse since i can now use that in conjunction with say Feral Death Blow... which is 2 saves vs death AND 35d6 damage even if they suceed.oh and lastly i also vote that Diamond Mind should definitely be available since it fits pretty darn well... while Tiger Claw and even Iron Heart i think could easily fit depending on the character being made... once again its something that i think should be up to the person making a character rather than the mechanics of the class itself.Originally posted by shokorai:I'm with the other two guys. It seems quite natural that an assassin, though by nature a killer, very well could be anyone from any alignment. Even very Good people take up the skills, viewing it as a necessary in order to accomplish the greater Good. While it's also been thought that the stereotypical assassin must be part of some guild and therefore Lawful, there can be those who would deviate from the usual and shun Law altogether. In fact, this is only another reason why the assassin IS an assassin, combating tyrannical law itself.With Black Lotus as its primary discipline, I feel Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand mesh well with the overall feel of the [sublime] assassin, here.If I had to pick over a fourth discipline, then I would go with Setting Sun, but it's hardly necessary.Originally posted by zachariah:
Although, later Assassins became also know for using poison a lot. It is, afterall, an effective way to kill... and I just kind of like it ^^
Fixed it.I also thought about the stances for a bit. Maybe switch Way of the Unseen (lvl 4) with Fading Petal (lvl 3) and move Eye of Massacre (lvl 6) to lvl 5. Stances would then be 1, 3, 5 and 7.Originally posted by thepope:personally i don't think that most of the boosts happen to be OPed if you let them be used with other manuevers... i would just either make the 9th level one a strike or add text to just that manuever, up to you though.after looking at Fading Petal i think it is better at 4th powerwise anyways. couple questions though, is the opponent making another attack roll vs your sleight of hand check? or using the one that caused the miss? if using the original roll then i would definitely toss in some kind of negative if you fail, otherwise you're looking at using a skill that you presumably have maxed out (with a maxed stat too) and going against a low roll... ie it'll be pretty hard to not make it.edit: actually, after yet more reading i would move Eye of Massacre to 7th, and move Death Shroud down to 5th... a stacking critical improvement is better than no healing any day of the week if you ask me. make sure you update the stance progression of the class to reflect the new stance locations though
Originally posted by zachariah:
Originally posted by unundindur:Very nice!A few remarks of course:1. Be careful with any ability that makes an attack roll "a natural 20" as that have a vicious synergy with the vorpal ability. it may be bette to say its an automatic critical threat, just to hedge it out.2. The 9th levle maneuver is in my oppinion slightly to god, but only because you are paralyzed if you fail you save, which effectively means death or death. If you instead made it stunned, dazed or whatever else I am all onto it. Especially considdering how recharging maneuvers can do wild things with this type of abilities.3. Regarding mind veil therei s no problem granting non-detection.4. Let Mind veil scale with character level instead of class-level. The less multiclassign is penalized, the better. If you already have 13 levels in a class its perfectly find to give this ability in a form that is equally useful at all levels, even though you take a detour into another class.5. As a personal preferance I would build a martial assassin of the warblade template instead of the swordsage. The reason is that that I think full BaB suits an assassin, and because an assassin typically would use less maneuvers (combat is supposed to be quick for an assassin). Anyhow, that is just my thoughts on the subject
Originally posted by zachariah:
Good point! This is the kind of notes I was hoping for. Ill think of a clean way to work that out.
Hmmm, true. It's suppose to be such an pressuring attack that even on a save causes some status effect. I believe dazed should be ok.But what about Black Lotus Eclipse, is the 1d3 rounds of paralyzis to much aswell?
Ok good, ill change that asap then
Dont see anything against this, so should be ok. Anyone else an opinion about this?
I see your point. Well I must admit I was tempted to, but I believe it was already a strong class. Indeed, assassin's aim for a quick kill, but they prefer doing so from a stealthy position, not going all out melee. To emphasise this I tried to granted him abilities that leave his opponents open for special sneak attacks while also lowering their AC. In addition he gets the bonus weapon focus feats, to increase the base attack without automatically granting him a 4th attack. He's also a good candidate for the weapon finesse feat. About feats, im still working on discipline feat(s). One of which would give you a bonus to attack when initiating a Sneak Attack Booster while being in a Black Lotus stance.5. As a personal preferance I would build a martial assassin of the warblade template instead of the swordsage. The reason is that that I think full BaB suits an assassin, and because an assassin typically would use less maneuvers (combat is supposed to be quick for an assassin). Anyhow, that is just my thoughts on the subject
Well maybe because of the name, but its really suppose to be a Boost, as with a lot of this schools boosts its there to enhance a single sneak attack.Nice to hear that you like it, and thanks for the constructed feedback!Originally posted by thanatos_lich:A few minor pointsMinor thingie: Death seal strike should be a strike, not a boost
sublime assasin might be better name but meh. not really important.2:whats a martial assasins recovery action for manuevers?3:Whats the associated skill for black lotus?4:This class rocks! i think i might use this.Originally posted by runestar:Will the ability to treat a single attack as a natural 20 have any problems with other abilities that operate off them, such as a vorpal weapon? True, it just means that you can instant-kill 1 foe/day, but it could still be troublesome nonetheless...Originally posted by zachariah:
1: Maybe.. dont know really, keep a poll about it?A few minor points
Btw: It was initially called Black Lotus Assassin, but that sounded to much like a PrC to me, so I decided to call the school Black Lotus2: Havent thought about that one yet, forgot about it tbh. I'll go work on that soon, aswell as the discipline feats.3: Its Sleight of Hand, which is noted in the first post right under the Black Lotus maneuver summery 4: Sweet, thanks! I would love to have others playtest it!
Yeah, thats just not the way it's intended it to work. It should be considered a 20 for hit and crit, but nothing else. If anyone know a good wording for it please feel free to share ^^Originally posted by shokorai:... this is an astounding piece of work.Upon finding this class, I have to admit that I immediately wanted to play with it. I wish I had more to add, but it looks all very fleshed out to me.Good work, sir. GOOD WORK.
Thanks.... this is an astounding piece of work.Upon finding this class, I have to admit that I immediately wanted to play with it. I wish I had more to add, but it looks all very fleshed out to me.Good work, sir. GOOD WORK.
Hmmm, I believe you overlooked something. Black Lotus has stances of maneuver level 1, 4, 6 and 7. 4th level means you can get obtain the 2nd level maneuver at level 7. Besides, the Martial Assassin has acces to Shadow Hand aswell. So, you can pick stances from that school.Originally posted by Endarrion:
What?The class gets a stance at 1st, 4th, and 9th level. That means he'll have 2 1st level stances and 1 whatever level stance at 9th. That kinda blows. I'm playing a warblade right now, and I don't even pay attention to the two stances he has because they're both 1st level and therefore aren't worth much (the AC penalty from punishing stance isn't usually worth it, and we've been fighting a lot of constructs so Blood in the Water isn't too effective).Originally posted by neveroth:This is actually intriguing. Seems like just the kind of class I've always wanted to play. You should post it at the CO board as well, see what they think about balance issues and potential brokenness. Can we expect a .pdf version when you work out all the kinks?
Ahh I see, sorry I miss understood you compleetly. You actually make a good point. Thanks for pointing it out, you cant ofcourse relearn stances... i'll see if I can work around it, because its kinda lame indeed.
Euhhmmm whats the OC forum?
The CO* board, short for Character Optimization board:http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339(x)The people who make minmaxing an artform. They know their mechanics better than anyone you've ever known, met, or heard of. A good place to ask for advice.Euhhmmm whats the OC forum?I havent thought about it. Maybe, when I feel its finished, I will. Sofar I have everything in a .doc file, already in the correct layout. So, I might aswell.
I agree with you on the alignment restriction. Though hired killing is certainly not a good PC's thing, it would be for neutral and (naturally) evil ones, but not every assassin kills because they like to or don't have a regard for life, which is why neutral should be included. Not everyone is an Artemis Entreri, after all.Also, when you say "original assassins", are you referring to the Hashshashin?
I'm looking forward to seeing what your Tactical feat for Black Lotus looks like. If you'd like advice on the recovery mechanic (I doubt you do, but maybe it could help), you could perhaps spend a standard action to get back maneuver equal to your Int mod, min 1 of course. I don't know, you probably don't need my help with this.
To me, and you, as well, Diamond Mind would be the only possible candidate. It would make sense if you did include, though, because the discipline's emphasis on maintaining focus in combat. Perfect clarity of your surroundings indeed would be useful to your assassin, but I digress. It's your class, and I shouldn't be telling you how and what to edit. Sorry.The proficiencies work, too. They're not numerous, but they're the weapons I would normally use anyway, so it works perfectly. Well done, once again, and good luck with the recovery mechanic and feats.Originally posted by zachariah:
Yeah, I was referring to them. But let it be clear, this class isnt based on the Hashshashin as they were (Otherwise I would have banned poison out of the class for example). I was mearly trying to make clear what my thoughts were on the definition of an assassin. Btw: I dont really know how Artemis Entreri is tbh... dont know the game that well.
I dont mind help with that at all. I'll figure it out by my self eventually, sure. But if you share your idea's it might lead to a better result.I'm not sure yet. I had basic ideas for recovery, 1; recover a maneuver on a sneak attack. 2; recover all maneuvers when you slay an opponent in combat.Tactical feat I still have to work out. Probebly will evolve applying poison as a swift action under a certain condition... not sure how yet. It's delayed some, as I'm currently pretty busy with my study... had to do some extra stuff that I didnt expect
Thanks, but again, I dont mind your opinion at all. The whole reason of the class being posted in its current state is because I want such feedback. So, you think Diamond Mind should be available? Im thinking about it, not sure yet. Thanks for the feedback!Originally posted by hanzo187:
You know your history. Very good. No poison. No bows. That was their way. And I understood why you used them as a baseline. Nothing beats an original, really.
No worries. I'm not terribly familiar with this stuff, myself. Basically, Artemis is an assassin, and his only real claim to fame is his rivalry with and enmity for Drizzt Do'Urden, one of Forgotten Realm's most popular characters.............................................. and he has a lovely singing voice.
Glad you approve, then. The ones you showed looked good. The Sneak Attack one is best, IMO, because you'll get in plenty of SA's throughout an encounter.
Ain't school a pain in the you-know-what? Well, I can wait. Just take your time.
No problem. Since you don't have a beef, I'm now glad I gave the feedback I did. Besides, the extra proficiencies from the Diamond Mind weapons wouldn't hurt the Assassin, either.Originally posted by jaronk:"Assassin’s Promise: At 20th level, once per day an Martial Assassin can take 20 on a failed sneak attack that he has just made. This counts as a reroll and is considered a natural 20 for the purpose of determining a critical hit."I can't tell what this is supposed to be. Taking 20 would take 20 rounds. If this gives you a natural 20 to hit, then it's an auto kill with Vorpal. Whatever it is, it needs clarification.Also, you should know there's a feat (Master of Poisons, I believe) that lets you apply poison as a free action (and never worry aboutpoisoning yourself), making that first level boost rather unnecessary.JaronKOriginally posted by thepope:just a couple thoughts... i would move the stances around a bit to make them line up with the ToB disciplines... ie a stance at 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 8th... right now your stances feel kinda jammed into the middle with a small bottom and top end.on recovery mechanic i would do something based on a stealthy skill, making a hide/sleight of hand check kind of thing... although at the same time i wouldn't make it something that could fail. i just think making it something that is different from the current methods would be nice. (oh and i don't like the idea to recover on a sucessful SA since among other things it would kinda stink vs undead and friends
)i also would toss my vote in objection to the alignment restrictions... let people make their own mind up on why they kill... who says they can't be an assassin of a good god who only kills clerics of Lloth or something. same thing with being lawful... if they work for the secret police of an evil government they certainly could be LE. i understand what your concept of an assassin is i just think that you should let the player decide the fluff of his character.i love that the 9th level manuever is a boost, however at the same time it really opens up for abuse since i can now use that in conjunction with say Feral Death Blow... which is 2 saves vs death AND 35d6 damage even if they suceed.oh and lastly i also vote that Diamond Mind should definitely be available since it fits pretty darn well... while Tiger Claw and even Iron Heart i think could easily fit depending on the character being made... once again its something that i think should be up to the person making a character rather than the mechanics of the class itself.Originally posted by shokorai:I'm with the other two guys. It seems quite natural that an assassin, though by nature a killer, very well could be anyone from any alignment. Even very Good people take up the skills, viewing it as a necessary in order to accomplish the greater Good. While it's also been thought that the stereotypical assassin must be part of some guild and therefore Lawful, there can be those who would deviate from the usual and shun Law altogether. In fact, this is only another reason why the assassin IS an assassin, combating tyrannical law itself.With Black Lotus as its primary discipline, I feel Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand mesh well with the overall feel of the [sublime] assassin, here.If I had to pick over a fourth discipline, then I would go with Setting Sun, but it's hardly necessary.Originally posted by zachariah:
Exactly
Although, later Assassins became also know for using poison a lot. It is, afterall, an effective way to kill... and I just kind of like it ^^
Yeah, and a somewhat necessary pain in the *** aswell... Meh.. still keeping me busy
After reading this (and the other posts) I believe I will add diamond mind to the available schools. It seems to fit indeed, thanks.
Well, I dont see how it can mean the 20 rounds part, but it can be confusing with the vorpal ability. Anyone have a tip on how I can word this correctly? English isnt my native language so I sometimes have a hard time writing this "politically correct" sentences.
I dont agree, eventhough I wasnt aware of the existance of such a feat, I still dont see why it would make the boost unnecessary. Yes, it will be if you pick the feat. But you could also use this boost and save you up a feat slot (which I would rather have).
Yes, I am aware of that. The reason why it is so, is because if I shift stances around I must shift maneuvers around aswell. It already took quite some time to fit in everything, so dont know how to change things.
Well, involving a check actually means giving it a chance factor... so it seems a bit contradicting if you wouldnt want it to fail. Leaving you the option to have an additional effect on a successful save. I dont think its a necasserly a bad idea, dont get me wrong. It just seem it might become complicated a bit. And yes, something different would be nice indeed. For the time being I will add the sneak attack part, but might aswell change it if I get a good idea for an alternative.Btw. Yeah, it would suck against undead. But an assassin isnt someone who should be a particulaire adapt at fighting already dead foes. So, I dont mind that at all.
I didnt put in the restriction must be lawful... only not chaotic. Anyway, I am intending to change that. I personally still feel it should be non-evil, would like to have some more opinions about that.
Can you make a sneak attack and a maneuver in the same round? I was under the impression that it wasnt possible. Otherwise I need to put that you cant use other maneuvers in the same turn u use the boost.
I have come to agree with diamond mind, not with the others though. They dont seem revined enough for the assassin I have in mind. If a person feels it fits his character let him either multiclass or convince his dm to houserule it.
Totally agree, also on the setting sun part. Anyway, added the Diamond Mind. ---New Info----Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts! Im currently working on writing more about the maneuver mechanics and stuff. I hope to finish it soon. Im have been working on 2 prestige classes aswell, so progress has beed slowed down a bit (although this class has priority).Btw. Quicke question; What would be a better name: Sublime Assassin or Martial Assassin.Because I have heart sublime fall twice now, I personally dont care much. But the name must appeal to people so I was wondering what others think about this.Also I have one of the tactical feat options worked out. So ill give a preview:Life’s EclipseDeath Spiral: To use this option, your must successfully poison a foe in combat with one of the preferred weapons of the Black Lotus discipline. On your next turn, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls against that foe. If you successfully damage him again during that round, you gain an additional +1 bonus on attack rolls against him during the round thereafter (for a total of +2). This effect keeps stacking upon itself in the same manner until you fail to hit the foe during a turn, on which the bonus is completely lost.So what do you guys think about that one? also the discription of the maneuver (the overall hardest part for me when making such things).Originally posted by legdiwena:Assassination is not inherently evil, look to the class in BoED that serves as assassin for celestial powers. Think it was Slayer of Domiel.Originally posted by zachariah:True. Yet, even the intro text of the Slayer of Domiel says: "Assassin's, of course, are evil by their nature and the nature of what they do."An Slayer of Domiel isnt really an assassin. Its just a hunter of evil that uses the approach of an assassin in order to kill (supernatural?) evil. The text also speaks of "former assassins" that become that class, meaning they are no longer assassins, but something else. Although, I believe this is also a matter of interpretation and view of what an assassin is. Thus, like has been said before, I might as well scrap the requirements and let the player/DM decide what seems to work for them. But on the other hand, I want to create an assassin that is, to some extant, historically true. If I go along that line, I just think, well, in that case let it be houseruled.Originally posted by thepope:yes you certainly can sneak attack while using a manuever. of course with most manuevers you only make a single attack, but nevertheless you can SA.sorry about the comment about being lawful... i simply got turned around by the end of the thread...as far as the recovery method what i was aiming to say was to make it based on something more sneaky yet not failable... so something like attempting a Feint or to Hide in Plain Sight... and you recover regardless of success... heck basing it on attempting to feint would also allow them to pick up Imp Feint and therefore recover with a move action.when you "take 20" you are saying that you simply take as long as it takes (ie 20 rounds) so for the capstone i would simply say that "once per day the assassin can turn a miss into a hit AND it threatens a critical if the creature is able to be critted." or something along those linesfor Life's Eclipse i would put in a cap, say +5 or so... they can maintain that +5 til they miss, but allowing it to continue stacking seems overpowered considering that every round it gets easier to continue getting a hit.Originally posted by Endarrion:Use the same kind of wording as from Weapon Supremacy:"Once per day, before rolling your attack, you may treat your d20 roll as a natural 20. This is both an automatic hit and a critical threat (which must be rolled for normally)."Or, if you want to make it after a miss, just say, "Once per day, after missing an attack roll, you may treat. . . "That might help.Originally posted by zachariah:
Ok, thanks for pointing that out. I added some text that should prevent that from happening.
Np, it can happen.
I really like that idea. Although, hide in plain sight couldnt be used till later levels, but the Feint sounds cool. Nice one.
Ahh I see, well I changed it. Should be ok now.
Sounds fair indeed. Agreed, I'll change it.
It sure did!
Fixed it.I also thought about the stances for a bit. Maybe switch Way of the Unseen (lvl 4) with Fading Petal (lvl 3) and move Eye of Massacre (lvl 6) to lvl 5. Stances would then be 1, 3, 5 and 7.Originally posted by thepope:personally i don't think that most of the boosts happen to be OPed if you let them be used with other manuevers... i would just either make the 9th level one a strike or add text to just that manuever, up to you though.after looking at Fading Petal i think it is better at 4th powerwise anyways. couple questions though, is the opponent making another attack roll vs your sleight of hand check? or using the one that caused the miss? if using the original roll then i would definitely toss in some kind of negative if you fail, otherwise you're looking at using a skill that you presumably have maxed out (with a maxed stat too) and going against a low roll... ie it'll be pretty hard to not make it.edit: actually, after yet more reading i would move Eye of Massacre to 7th, and move Death Shroud down to 5th... a stacking critical improvement is better than no healing any day of the week if you ask me. make sure you update the stance progression of the class to reflect the new stance locations though
Hmmm, well thats just not how its intended to work. I mean, you cant make other strikes either when you already made on... right?
Changed it to the following:Whenever an opponent attacks you and misses, you can initiate this maneuver as an immediate action. As part of this maneuver, you must make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by your opponent's attack roll. If your Sleight of Hand check succeeds, you disarm your opponent. If you fail, your opponents attack is considered successful. You cannot initiate this maneuver if your are considered flat-footed against the incoming attack.
Agreed, the eye of massacre is stronger, changed them around. Also granted him an 6 stance known at lvl 18. Because otherwise it would be a dead level. btw, serieusly, thanks a lot for your time reading all that stuff and helping to improve it.-End quote part-I was also thinking about adding improved evasion at level 18. Would that be ok or to much?Also I someone told me that the assassin's promise is a bit weak for a capstone ability. What do you guys think?Originally posted by thepope:
well boosts are definitely meant to be used in combination with strikes, if that's not you question then you'll have to rephrase.
looks better to me.
not a problem, not usually one for custom classes, but i'm a sucker for ToB and i liked the class a lot-End quote part-
i think imp evasion would be fine, i would put this assassin as below warblade in terms of power level and swordsage gets it at 17.far as the capstone ability goes... other than worrying about the vorpal thing i personally don't think its that exciting. part of that is just personal preference though, 1/day abilities just don't wow me. maybe make it 3/day you can autoconfirm a threat? would seem to mesh nicely with all the crit boosting manuevers in Black Lotus.or maybe 1/day or 3/day you can maximize your SA for a round? (just like a maximized fireball... only with SA) would be a nice source of burst damage...or heck, 3/day you can SA something for a round that can't normally be SAed.Originally posted by zachariah:
Yes, most boosts sure are. I was refering to the sneak attack boosts. The only reason why they are boosts is to only allow them on a sneak attack.
Thanks, same here on the ToB part. I really like that system aswell.
Ok, I'll keep the improved evasion in mind. Before I posted it I also had an ability called True Blend, which would allow you to cast a Meld into Stone like ability, that also works on wood. But I scrapped it because it seemed a bit to magical.tbh, I dont like the once per day things either... But I was afraid to add more because it may become to strong. I really like your suggestion of maximize SA. But that might be to strong aswell when combined with maneuvers... I would also like to keep the ability to ensure a hit. So reroll and maximize or something?Originally posted by thepope:actually, considering the various threat range increasers in the class it wouldn't be a bad ability to say if you threaten a crit it becomes an auto-hit/auto-confirm... since its entirely possible that you'll threaten but miss.as far as maximizing SA, at first i was thinking that'd be a bit too powerful, but then remembered we're talking about the lvl 20 ability of a class that only gets 5d6 SA dice... so you're talking +30 damage to each attack for one round 3/day... really at level 20 that doesn't seem like that huge of a deal... its good for sure, but not earthshaking.oh and i'd skip the true blend thing, doesn't seem to fit much at all atm.Originally posted by zachariah:Auto confirm would be nice, but do you mean a number of times per day or a passive like ability? Because that might be to powerful.On the maximixing I kept the 5d6 in mind. Otherwise it would be nasty indeed. If used, It just needs to be clear that the SA dice from boost arent maximized. But is it ok to keep it maximized and give an auto 20? If so, I will remove the "if you miss a SA" part out of it and just let become a call, before you make the SA attack roll.Yes, I dont plan on adding True Blend either, was just curious what you would think of it. But you seem to agree. I think I'll add improved evasion.Edit: I was thinking about making a new type of maneuver (like boost, counter, strike) in place for the sneak attack boosts... Call them Assassination Techniques or Enhanced Sneak Attack, something like that.Originally posted by thepope:
oh, meant 3/day for sure.On the maximixing I kept the 5d6 in mind. Otherwise it would be nasty indeed. If used, It just needs to be clear that the SA dice from boost arent maximized. But is it ok to keep it maximized and give an auto 20? If so, I will remove the "if you miss a SA" part out of it and just let become a call, before you make the SA attack roll.
eh, i think that you are actually putting too much importance on SA... its really not that incredible as far as damage goes... you have a +3d6, +5d6, and +5d8 for boosts and they're only on the next SA, not a whole round's worth... and a level 20 rogue is sitting on +10d6 every attack every round while your assassin is doing it only every couple rounds... truly the only boost of your's i had issue with was the lvl 9 one and purely because mixing it with other 9th lvl strikes is just plain ugly.that said if you really want to keep them separate then i would simply make them strikes, you'd have to do some adjusting to either standard or full-round actions and adjust the manuever accordingly... but i think that the ToB system can get complicated enough without tossing in another manuever type.Originally posted by zachariah:
Yeah thats true, maybe add some dice to those maneuvers? because this is suppose to be a more combat oriented class then the rogue. Or make it scale by level/initiator level for those maneuvers? (something like bloodstainer)
True, it wouldnt change a thing though. But there is no real need for it, and might indeed complicate things more. I just leave as it is.
