How do I throw people?

[Ulrik]

If any player in my campaign asked to do this (and I really wish they would, they've done exactly one stunt in the campaign so far...) I'd rule that they would first need to grab and then make a dex vs reflex attack. Since a straight up dex attack won't have any bonuses from magic weapons/implements, this will make it quite hard to pull off as the levels go up, so I might even allow them to slide the target one square. What makes it even harder is that grab is a strength check, so the PC is required to first hit with a strength attack and then a dex attack, without benefits of weapon bonuses.

I might add a size bonus to defense, maybe +2 or +4, to avoid sillyness with large monsters with low ref. Or maybe require the trip to be vs fort?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm creating a monster (http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/252897-robot-enforcer-please-critique.html) that has, basically, Doctor Octopus arms: mech tentacles with sizable grabby claws.

These monsters hover, so they can fly vertically to the 106th floor of a skyscraper, burst through a window, snag a body, and throw the person out the window to their death. Or across the room if I don't feel like being a rat bastard.

How would you adjudicate that type of "throw"?

It is actually perfectly within the existing 4e rules. The robot makes a grab, then makes a drag, releases the grab and uses a bull rush to push the target out the window. This will require at least a to-hit for the grab, another to-hit for the drag, and a to-hit for the bull rush. The target will also get a save to avoid falling off the edge. Of course the robot could fly out the window while maintaining the grab and then simply let go of the victim. I would rule in that case that the victim got a save to let them hold onto the robot, but at that point all the robot has to do is escape the grab.

In this particular case, since it is a specific monster, I would add into its stat block an explicit throw power. Something like:

Throw (standard action; at-will, against a grabbed creature) * Melee
+N vs FORT; hit, the robot may slide the target up to 3 spaces and the target is knocked prone. Effect, the target is no longer grabbed.

Should work fine.

Of course the whole concept IS pretty nasty, but then falling is nasty already and as I demonstrated above it is not TOO difficult for a creature to push another off a cliff, etc. Still, I would have to consider carefully how such a robot was used in a game. Insta-death is no fun...

 

[Danceofmasks]

Already a monster that's much much worse in the MM.
Green dragons can slide PCs as an at-will (1/round) minor action. Any GM that can run a green dragon without PCs crying foul or crying "that dragon woulda TPK'ed is if it wasn't a retard" would be able to handle that robot.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, assuming the same 106 story fall is waiting the green dragon COULD be pretty dangerous. There are two observations though:

1. Just because one monster in a situation is too nasty does not mean MORE should be added.

2. The throw CAN be deadlier. As I wrote it up it requires the attacker to hit at least twice and gives the defender a save to avoid falling, but it also allows a 3 square slide. The green dragon does a one square slide, and remember if it is off a cliff the target STILL gets the save to not fall. It isn't too hard to imagine PCs simply staying far enough from the edge to negate any possibility of a one square slide pushing them off. It may be quite a bit harder to avoid the 3 square slide doing so, you would have to remain 4 squares from the edge. Of course the green dragon can also do a grab action and drag the target, then slide it, but that is no worse than what the robot can do, though it avoids one attack role it is also still only a one square slide.

In any case, cliffs are always a situational danger. PCs crossing a 1 square wide ledge in the face of opposition are just not going to be able to avoid being in extreme danger, which is of course why the DMG recommends not using terrain with heights which generate fall damage beyond certain survivable limits based on encounter level.

Any case where a greater height exists should either be situated such that the PCs can avoid getting too close, or there should exist some alternative they can choose to avoid the terrain like passing a skill challenge or accepting a more difficult battle instead. Any situation that can insta-kill a PC should be designed into an encounter in a similar fashion. That way the players are choosing the risk if they take it.

 

[DracoSuave]

An example of a throw power could be the Warden's Form of the Fearsome Ram power. Not only do you get a throw (push 3 and knock prone) which is about as 'throw' as powers get, you also get to push with each attack. It could -easily- be interpreted as you turning into a manbear (RAWR) and tossing people everywhere with impunity.

Not to mention that rage that Barbarians get that adds 'knocks dem prone' to every attack...

By putting into powers, you make throws a part of the combat-style rather than simply 'an action you can do.' That makes them special, just like how the wizard who casts fire spells is cool in his way.

 

[Kest]

Abdul and Ulrik, thanks for the responses and keeping an open mind.

Several of the posters here seem more intent on arguing with me or saying I'm doing it wrong rather than actually answering the question.

 

[Ulrik]

More generally, limiting all cool effects to powers is NOT what 4e is about. Almost all powers deal damage and get magic bonuses in addition to any effects. Any effects should be fair game for stunts, even if some power somewhere does something similar, as the power is generally better anyway.

 

[Hadrian the Builder]

There is a set of magic gloves called "gloves of giantkind" (I think that's the name) that provides a great example of an encounter power to throw an opponent

 

[TheLordWinter]

Anything else you attempt would be a Stunt. There are no hard mechanics for it so it would be handled at the discretion of the Dungeon Master.

If I were the DM I'd make it take a Standard Action that you could only take against a target you are Grabbing - and it would cost you an Action Point. Then I'd make it an Athletics Check with a base DC of the subject's Fortitude Defense. Further, I'd allow you to slide the victim rather than push him, to allow for lateral throws and the like.

- If you succede on the check you may slide the victim 1 square and knock him prone.
- For each 5 full points by which your check result excedes the DC, you may slide the victim an additional square.
- For every 2 full squares the victim moves he suffers 1d10 falling damage.

Thank you - this is exactly what one of my players has been clamoring for. She has been asking, for over a month in fact, how she can lift up and hurl one minion into another. I was unsure whether to allow it or how to implement it, but I feel this topic has answered both of those questions.

I think it's important to remember that not everything a character can do needs to be defined as a "power." Stunting is perfectly acceptable, and in fact I am going to try to encourage it a bit more. I want to see my players get more inventive and I am going to try to stick less with the rules than I have thus far.

 

[mlund]

Thank you - this is exactly what one of my players has been clamoring for. She has been asking, for over a month in fact, how she can lift up and hurl one minion into another. I was unsure whether to allow it or how to implement it, but I feel this topic has answered both of those questions.

Well, I'm glad you like it.

Personally, when dealing with Minions I don't think you should even need to spend an Action Point. You can just as easily have slain a minion as grabbed him, mechanically, so all the rider effects of falling damage and knocking prone are basically irrelevant. It is effectively no different than killing him and throwing his corpse - morbid though the thought may be. Consider it the "non-lethal" corpse-throw attack.

Hitting someone with the Grabbed minion on your next stand action should probably be covered under the mechanics for throwing a Heavy Improvised Weapon (like furniture).

Once a player succeeds in an offensive d20 roll against a Minion I treat the Minion as if he's effectively a prop at the Player Character's mercy.

- Marty Lund