D&D 5E How Do Monks Survive At Low Levels?

[mellored]

How is 13 damage with 2 swings not good damage at 1st level or 18.5 damage with 3 swings not good damage from 2-3 and then 21.5 at 4th? What class consistently matches up well with that on round 1 of a combat, no matter what the initiative order is?

Fighter with 2 short swords and TWF style. Who also get's second wind and action surge.

Ranger with 2 short swords and TWF. Who also get's hunter's mark.

Rogues with 2 short swords (actually 13.5, or 17 at level 3). Who also get's cunning action and expertise.

 

[MwaO]

You make some fair points, but your stance on darting in and out of combat suggests that you view monks as tanks which they most certainly are not. The monk class is clearly designed as a skirmisher, not a tank. Trying to play a monk as a tank will almost certainly get you killed. Leave the tanking to the paladins, barbarians, and fighters who are much better at it than the monk thanks to abilities such as self-healing, damage resistance, high HP, etc.

No, I view the monk's best ability to dart in and out of combat is to kill the thing it is attacking at levels 1-4. And spending resources on being able to dart in and out of combat at level 2-4 is an exercise in not trying to kill the thing.

Toss a javelin at a weak-looking target - if you hit it, then use your mobility to move up to it, kill it with FoB, and then move back.

 

[MwaO]

Fighter with 2 short swords and TWF style. Who also get's second wind and action surge.

Ranger with 2 short swords and TWF. Who also get's hunter's mark.

Rogues with 2 short swords (actually 13.5, or 17 at level 3). Who also get's cunning action and expertise.

Fighter is going down a path that ultimately doesn't pan out because TWF doesn't intersect with either of the damage feats.

Ranger is going down a path that ultimately doesn't pan out because Rangers suck. And it doesn't have better defenses or significantly better hp.

Rogue does less damage and has worse defenses at 2nd level.

At 3rd level, Open Hand Monks get the ability to not provoke a reaction with a hit from Flurry of Blows. So they can then move away from their target a good 80% of the time or so on round 1 of a combat if it doesn't drop.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I tend to assume that the standard point-buy system is being used in all of the games I play, Hemlock. You are, of course, correct--with above average rolls, a monk can start with an AC above 16, which would help to mitigate some of the squishiness at low levels.

Even with standard point buy, missile combat is not suboptimal for a monk. It should be a primary strategy.

A third level shadow monk is a skirmisher and a scout with limited melee burst capability thrown in. It's fine. Not as tanky as a Paladin but then the Paladin isn't as stealthy as the monk. Everyone has their job to do, and the monk at least isn't fragile.

Still waiting to see anybody show a ranger or fighter beat a monk in a missile duel after 3rd level. Missile catching is way better than archery style in that scenario.

 

[mellored]

Fighter is going down a path that ultimately doesn't pan out because TWF doesn't intersect with either of the damage feats.

Yes, but we're talking 1-4 here. TWF fighter does very well from 1-4.

Ranger is going down a path that ultimately doesn't pan out because Rangers suck. And it doesn't have better defenses or significantly better hp.

At higher level, yes.
But again, we're talking 1-4.

Rogue does less damage and has worse defenses at 2nd level.

No.
1d6+3 + 1d6 sneak attack + 1d6.
= 3d6+3 = 13.5.
Plus having 2 attacks means 2 chances to land sneak attack. So once you factor in accuracy, they are ahead.

They also have the option for 2d6+3 at range, with a strong possibility of advantage.

At 3rd level, Open Hand Monks get the ability to not provoke a reaction with a hit from Flurry of Blows. So they can then move away from their target a good 80% of the time or so on round 1 of a combat if it doesn't drop.

Assassin can auto-crit, and has 100% chance to run away every round of combat.

Battlemaster can add 1d6 damage and push 4 times per short rest. Not to mention

Hunter get's an extra d8 or extra attack, not just 3 times. Though they don't get much more after that.

 

[Leugren]

No, I view the monk's best ability to dart in and out of combat is to kill the thing it is attacking at levels 1-4. And spending resources on being able to dart in and out of combat at level 2-4 is an exercise in not trying to kill the thing.

Toss a javelin at a weak-looking target - if you hit it, then use your mobility to move up to it, kill it with FoB, and then move back.

I like the tactic of following up a ranged attack against a weak looking target with a Move In + Flurry of Blows to Kill + Move Out. I had not really considered that.

I think you're also stating that you view the Mobile feat as a complete waste, which I don't at all agree with. Unless you plan to eat a lot of OAs, you'll get locked down in melee without it, which I view as a very suboptimal strategy for a monk. You should be seeking out targets of opportunity on the periphery of the front line, darting in to kick some butt, and then darting back out again while your paladin, barbarian, or fighter buddy keeps the opponent in question locked down so that it can't chase you. Mobile lets you do this every single round with no resource expenditure. Even after 5th, you won't be stunning or dropping opponents every round, and you're at your best when you are free to move around the battlefield. The best defense for a monk is not to be within an opponent's reach when its turn comes around. The exception is when you're taking on a spellcaster or a primarily ranged opponent--in that case, you should stay right up in your opponent's grill, as you state.

 

[mellored]

Still waiting to see anybody show a ranger or fighter beat a monk in a missile duel after 3rd level. Missile catching is way better than archery style in that scenario.

Hail of thorns for the ranger. Doesn't matter if your lying down and you can't deflect it.

Could probably beat a fighter, though action surge (2 attacks), extra HP, and battle master dice make it more down to the dice rolls.

 

[MwaO]

Unless you plan to eat a lot of OAs, you'll get locked down in melee without it, which I view as a very suboptimal strategy for a monk.

Open Hand Monks can choose from 3 options after hitting a target with an FoB. Target not being able to take reactions automatically is one of the 3 choices.

 

[mellored]

I think you're also stating that you view the Mobile feat as a complete waste, which I don't at all agree with.

From 1-4 it's a good feat.

But with step on the wind (disengage), open hand / shadow step / fist of the unbroken air, and stunning strike (can't use reaction), you have plenty of ways to avoid OA's at higher levels.

Maybe your DM will let you retrain.

 

[Leugren]

Open Hand Monks can choose from 3 options after hitting a target with an FoB. Target not being able to take reactions automatically is one of the 3 choices.

This costs ki, which is a limited resource, especially at low levels, so it lacks reliability.