How does a dragon grapple?

[BartD]

The wyvern has a BAB of +7 and Improved Grab.

Due to Improved Grab, its "Damage Your Opponent" grapple checks don't deal unarmed strike (nonlethal) damage; they deal talon damage. (Including in the round when the hold is established.)

Is this true? It sure is! That clears up a lot for me. (I had misread the IG description in the SRD which does not have as much structure.)

But now I wonder - Is it both parts of Improved Grab (start grapple after normal attack and natural weapon damage as grapple damage) that only work on smaller opponents? Or just the first part about it being easy to start a grapple?

Just one more question. Your post is very clear except it confuses me that you write "So in a round when the wyvern begins grappling..." Can I read it as "...when the wyvern is grappling..." ?

 

[Old Drew Id]

From the SRD:

A dragon can always use its breath weapon while grappling, as well as its spells and spell-like or supernatural abilities, provided it succeeds on Concentration checks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But now I wonder - Is it both parts of Improved Grab (start grapple after normal attack and natural weapon damage as grapple damage) that only work on smaller opponents? Or just the first part about it being easy to start a grapple?

Good question, and as far as I can tell, it's "Improved Grab" that only works on smaller opponents, so it will be all aspects of the ability.

Just one more question. Your post is very clear except it confuses me that you write "So in a round when the wyvern begins grappling..." Can I read it as "...when the wyvern is grappling..." ?

Sorry, I phrased it badly. "In a round that begins with the wyvern already grappling" expresses what I meant more clearly, I think.

-Hyp.

 

[BartD]

Good question, and as far as I can tell, it's "Improved Grab" that only works on smaller opponents, so it will be all aspects of the ability.

That's what it sounds like to me as well. The reason I question it is I don't find it reasonable that for example a grappling wyvern only gets one real attack against another wyvern, and a leopard cannot rend a human. (Because they are of the same size, Improved Grapple does not work and therefore they can only attack once with one of their many natural weapons. In addition, the wyvern with BAB>+5 can try to damage its opponent by grappling for unarmed damage of d4+4.)

So I'm still not quite satisfied, I feel that monsters in general should be more dangerous in a grapple. I find it especially strange that when grappling/pinning, holding a dagger or wearing spiked armor can give more attacks than having bite and claws.

It makes me considering letting natural weapons be used to "Damage Your Opponent" when grappling, with each natural weapon being used no more than once per turn. That would allow creatures with multiple natural weapons and sufficient BAB to attack multiple times while grappling/pinning. But maybe it will give some bad side effects I can't think of right now?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's what it sounds like to me as well. The reason I question it is I don't find it reasonable that for example a grappling wyvern only gets one real attack against another wyvern, and a leopard cannot rend a human. (Because they are of the same size, Improved Grapple does not work and therefore they can only attack once with one of their many natural weapons. In addition, the wyvern with BAB>+5 can try to damage its opponent by grappling for unarmed damage of d4+4.)

So I'm still not quite satisfied, I feel that monsters in general should be more dangerous in a grapple. I find it especially strange that when grappling/pinning, holding a dagger or wearing spiked armor can give more attacks than having bite and claws.

It makes me considering letting natural weapons be used to "Damage Your Opponent" when grappling, with each natural weapon being used no more than once per turn. That would allow creatures with multiple natural weapons and sufficient BAB to attack multiple times while grappling/pinning. But maybe it will give some bad side effects I can't think of right now?

Really, I suggest playing with the rules against a few times with different opponents. Especially with larger ones you will notice that it doesn't matter if they lose some attacks, because most characters will lose a lot more in grapple.

I am not sure if daggers should be effective in grapple, but I think Armor Spikes work as one would expect - imagine you'd grapple a hedgehog!

(By the way, that's an animal we still need - the Dire Hedgehog!)

 

[Sektat]

> I find it especially strange that when grappling/pinning, holding a dagger
> or wearing spiked armor can give more attacks than having bite and claws.

I'd like to add that there are different opinions on that matter here. It all depends if you consider the "all about grapple" documents from WotC as official source or not.
Because as you can read here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a

under "attack your opponent" it is written that "If you have multiple natural weapons, however, you can use all of them while grappling." (with -4 for such an attack).
So if you have a low BAB, but 3 natural weapons, then you might be better off with this option.

And thanks to the often quoted rule
> Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base
> attack bonus when using natural weapons.
our monster can do this attack (with all his natural weapons!) only once in a grapple, durin his turn.

 

[BartD]

Thanks for the link. It has been edited in March 2007, mostly regarding natural weapons. (thought: could this editing have something to do with 4e?)

I don't remember when the Rules Compendium is from relative to March 2007 and don't know if "Rules of the Game" is official (don't think it really is). But after all this discussion I think what I'm after is a set of grappling rules that are workable and not too unreasonable. And the (edited) Rules of the Game seem like a good bid.

One thing I cannot figure out, though, is whether a creature with more natural weapons than it would get iterative attacks for BAB gets to full attack with all its natural weapons?
On one hand, it is stated (under "Attack Your Opponent") that "If you have multiple natural weapons (...) you can use all of them while grappling. which sounds like a full attack sequence to me.
But then there are two references to the number of attacks depending on BAB (in the beginning under "Your Options When Grappling" and later under "Monsters and Grappling") saying that "If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these maneuvers in place of each of your attacks, but you use successively lower attack bonuses to resolve any required opposed grapple checks" and "The monster gets as many “attacks” in a full attack action as it would get if it were attacking with a weapon, based on its base attack bonus".
Basically, I don't know if a monster gets the option of full attacking with all its natural weapons or is limited by its BAB?

I also note that armor spikes can be used while pinning but natural weapons cannot be used unless the creature has Improved Grab. (Not sure what I think of it, though.)

 

[Sektat]

> Basically, I don't know if a monster gets the option of full attacking
> with all its natural weapons

I show the way I understand it (according to that document) with an example:

Polar bear (MM 1), base attack 6, grapple 18, full attack 2 claws and 1 bite, feat=improved grab.

If it's the monsters turn and the grapple has already started, then the monster could choose to attack ("attack your opponent") with 2 claws and 1 bite (at -4. And, of course, the additional -5 for the bite attack, since it's the secondary natural weapon), and this ends its turn. OR he could do a "damage your opponent" twice (grapple check 18, then 13), doing claw damage.

For me, and my group, this is the only way how it's meant to be. Think about it: If you forget about the "damage your opponent" option, and only focus on "attack your opponent", then we have a nearly normal fight (with -4 because you are so close to each other, and only light weapons): The weapon wielder can do as many attacks as his BAB allows him (which is like a full round attack), and the monster can attack with all his natural weapons once (which is....like a full round attack!).

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's what it sounds like to me as well. The reason I question it is I don't find it reasonable that for example a grappling wyvern only gets one real attack against another wyvern, and a leopard cannot rend a human. (Because they are of the same size, Improved Grapple does not work and therefore they can only attack once with one of their many natural weapons. In addition, the wyvern with BAB>+5 can try to damage its opponent by grappling for unarmed damage of d4+4.)

Leopards can't Rend (they don't have the Rend ability), but they can Rake:
Rake (Ex): A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual –4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

Rake is a specific exception to the "only one natural weapon in a grapple" rule.

I'd like to add that there are different opinions on that matter here. It all depends if you consider the "all about grapple" documents from WotC as official source or not.

That directly contradicts the Monster Manual stating "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

-Hyp.

 

[Sektat]

> That directly contradicts the Monster Manual stating
> "Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling".

Yes. That's true. So you either have to use the "more official rule" (==> MM) or the "most recent rule" (==> WotC's document about grapple).
Since I consider the most recent rule way more logical (no argument, I know), we use this rule. Of course it's a disadvantage for the PC's so I suppose other groups will stick to the MM.