How many Demigods to one Greater God?

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

I posted the following in one of the other threads but I think the point needs addressing.

One thing that has changed is the relationship between various levels of divinity.

My imagined IH progression was for a doubling of power every divine status, so that 1 demideity is worth 2 quasi-deities or 4 hero-deities, etc.

2, 4, 8, 16, 32

However, the recent changes to v6 suggest that the relationship is more akin to 3.3 quasi-deities and 10 hero-deities.

3.3, 10, 33, 100, 333

With 4th Editions power swing using a 30-level immortal class progression you get a shift in the other direction:

2, 3.3, 4.5, 6.6, 10

ie.

A. I wanted a Greater God equal to about 32 hero-deities.

B. In actuality a Greater God is equal to about 333 hero-deities

C. 4th Edition (in the incarnation I have speculated upon) would have a Greater God equal to about 10 hero-deities.

Personally I think C is more palatable than B, because it better promotes interaction.

To turn B into A, you need to change Divine Rank as follows:

Up to Quasi-deity = same

Demi-deity = DvR 5
Lesser = DvR 7
Inter = DvR 9
Greater = DvR 12

Elder = DvR 16
Over = DvR 22
First = DvR 29

Of course this means changes to Hit Dice as well as the Divinity Templates.

For instance a Greater God would have between 60-79 Hit Dice (5 per divine rank)

I bought Dungeon #150 today (bear with me its relevant), and yes it was only just released here, thats how far we are behind. Looking over the adventure, Demogorgon appeared to have roughly half a dozen servants of about 2/3rds his Challenge Rating (which is actually what my rules in Gods & Monsters predict, however, I digress).

The point I am getting at is how much more powerful should the 'boss' be to the henchmen and more specifically, how much more powerful should each leap in divine status be?

In 4th Edition, it seems as though the 30th-level 'Boss' could be equivalent to five 30th-level 'Henchmen'. In that context, you don't want to go beyond a fivefold increase in power for a single individual.

e.g. You don't want the PCs to fight something five times more powerful than any of them individually. Thats a x1.67 increase in ECL/CR over the individual.

I have to hold my hand up and say that my initial goal for power, a doubling every status, has gotten away from me due to the recent revelations of version 6 of the Challenge Rating system.

Demigods are equivalent to ten average Hero-deities, not merely four as I had planned.

I think what has limited the adverse effects of my mistake has been the trend to min/max stuff amongst many epic players.

All this has made me reflect on various things including a less maths based (or should that be less maths intensive) approach. Most notably a lowering of the levels/power attributed to each status.

In Dungeon magazine, Demogorgon is roughly equivalent to a Quasi-deity and his major henchmen equivalent to Hero-deities. So he equals something like 3.3 henchmen, or about 11 (or so) 20th-level PCs...Though in the adventure he can be weakened before fighting, down to something akin to one of his henchmen. But it sort of shows up the system, in that you cannot stray as far from your own level as I had liked.

Should the goal with any new system be a jump between status of x1.33, x2 or x3.33?

Should one Greater God equal:

A: 4-5 Demigods
B: 8 Demigods
C: 33 Demigods

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I'm all for choice B (the doubling progression) since it's a much cleaner and simpler system that also avoids alienating interactions between gods of different ranks. However, if it means that the divinity templates and HD will have to be changed, I'm also willing to consider choice C. I'd rather not think about choice A till 4th edition finally comes out, since it's highly likely that there might be changes to what we know about 4th edition.

As such, I'll abstain from voting for now. I'll wait until I get to see v6 or the divinity templates before making my decision.

 

[historian]

U_K, I put down 8 as I tend to think that's a happy medium.

Each successive Divine Status should be about roughly twice as tough (on average) as the one before it.

I think if the level of power is compressed, meaning the nest highest rank isn't at least twice as tough, then it's really hard to see where Divine Status ends and another begins. In a world where this was the case I would think chaos would ensue. This really gets me when you start comparing Sidereals with Immortals. The idea of 5 Intermediate Deities getting together and having a better than average chance of besting an Elder God doesn't appeal to me intuitively, although this is strictly a matter of taste and not necessarily one of game balance.

Any more than a *2 increase and interaction goes out the window pretty quickly. This would probably be more bothersome to PCs playing Deities in that advancement would likely be a much slower process. I also think it suggests a very orderly Universe and one in which Immortals (non-Sidereals) are virtually irrelevant to the Cosmic Balance. Again a matter of taste but that's my thinking.

Ultimately there might be other ways to come down on this issue as I'm unsure whether there is a "right" answer. For example, one might use the optional rule where DvR increases at 1/5 hp level to bridge the gap between beings of different Divine Status.

 

[paradox42]

I'm for choice C at a minimum, but then most longtime posters in this forum are aware of my taste for wide gaps in power between entities of different tiers. Which is to say, I want to have gods of Lesser and higher status to be so powerful that mortals have little to no chance of beating them. I want to have Sidereals so absurdly mighty that even Greater Gods tremble when thinking about the consequences of waking one. This is why I altered the "minimum HD" scale for my own campaigns, which are (perhaps ironically) starting to reach divine territory now so the scale is actually coming into play.

One PC in my original Epic game has reached true godhood (the character is a Hero-Deity now) and the others in that party are all pursuing it. In fact, they're pursuing it with vigor, since as a side effect of the ascension of the first character I had a "feedback pulse of excess energy" released during the ascension grant them all 2 levels/HD- the real point of this being to offset the large ECL boost that will happen with them once they get the templates themselves- but the players are happy to go after the largest XP boost they've ever had so it works nicely as an incentive as well.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I voted B: 8:1 Demigod:Greater God ratio.

Statistically, its not too important, but the doubling mechanic (2 lesser tier entities equal one entity twice their power) is both aesthetically pleasing and easy.

Fluff-wise, it doesn't seem likely that 8 Demigods could challenge the Head of a Pantheon, or the equivalent. "Mook" giants* in the Norse pantheon, who were somewhat more than Monster Manual giants, pretty much have no chance of defeating Odin. Odin may only have one eye, but unless you have Dozens of super-skilled giants with favored enemy (Fimbultyr), our cyclopean overgod will have little trouble dispatching them or fleeing to the side of Thor. I may not be an expert on the Norse cosmology and it's divinity, but I hear he has a bit of a reputation for killing giants out of boredom.
So, by the way the fluff to me feels, I could accept 8 Demigods vs 1 Greater God, but I think thats the farthest the ratio of possibility goes, because that Greater God likely will have mooks as powerful or more powerful than the Demigods that face him otherwise. And since if such a direct encounter were to take place, more often then not those Demigods will be PC-type entities fighting against the big bad evil guy at the end of a campaign, I have no problem softening the encounter with a bit of villain-stupids. ("Why should I watch my foes die? I am sure my loyal henchmen will take care of them before they can stop me from activating the ultra-magical thingamabob...")

Math and stat wise - its fine either way, but as I noted above: the doubling thing is just plain easier.

(* - I am not equating Norse Giants to Demigods directly; I'd have to do a lot of reading to accurately place them at the right tier of power. I just used them as fluff comparison)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Adslahnit!

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm all for choice B (the doubling progression) since it's a much cleaner and simpler system that also avoids alienating interactions between gods of different ranks. However, if it means that the divinity templates and HD will have to be changed, I'm also willing to consider choice C.

Well if we want Option B as standard I will have to change a few things in Ascension. But its basically just a change to divine rank and estimated Hit Dice. So its a fairly quick change.

Annoyingly it would mess with the Epic Bestiary a little.

I'd rather not think about choice A till 4th edition finally comes out, since it's highly likely that there might be changes to what we know about 4th edition.

As such, I'll abstain from voting for now. I'll wait until I get to see v6 or the divinity templates before making my decision.

Thinking a little more about it, its possible that choice A also parallels 1st Edition AD&D. I think 4-5 Demigods may have given Odin a run for his money.

Of course that assumes Odin didn't bother to call for help and is not on his home plane.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

U_K, I put down 8 as I tend to think that's a happy medium.

Each successive Divine Status should be about roughly twice as tough (on average) as the one before it.

I think if the level of power is compressed, meaning the nest highest rank isn't at least twice as tough, then it's really hard to see where Divine Status ends and another begins. In a world where this was the case I would think chaos would ensue. This really gets me when you start comparing Sidereals with Immortals. The idea of 5 Intermediate Deities getting together and having a better than average chance of besting an Elder God doesn't appeal to me intuitively, although this is strictly a matter of taste and not necessarily one of game balance.

Well of course they couldn't actually kill it.

However, personally I like that level of interaction. I don't want beings to need to be of the same status before they can 'defeat' their opponents.

You shouldn't have to be an Elder God to battle an Elder God.

Any more than a *2 increase and interaction goes out the window pretty quickly. This would probably be more bothersome to PCs playing Deities in that advancement would likely be a much slower process. I also think it suggests a very orderly Universe and one in which Immortals (non-Sidereals) are virtually irrelevant to the Cosmic Balance. Again a matter of taste but that's my thinking.

Well it limits interaction to with +/-1 status, whereas method B allows for +/-2 interaction and method A allows +/-4 interaction.

Ultimately there might be other ways to come down on this issue as I'm unsure whether there is a "right" answer. For example, one might use the optional rule where DvR increases at 1/5 hp level to bridge the gap between beings of different Divine Status.

That might indeed smooth the bumps.

By the way I got your email, the web comic looks interesting although still in development stages so its hard to see much of what hes coming up with beyond the character design which looks like classic manga-esque fare. I don't see the connection between Time Lords and Rollerblading Lesbian Catwomen in Hotpants. But I did love the background imagery for (I presume) the Seicross character, which looked like atomic structure building blocks crossed with how I see my own ideas for the 8th dimension - that was very cool.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya paradox42 dude!

I'm for choice C at a minimum, but then most longtime posters in this forum are aware of my taste for wide gaps in power between entities of different tiers. Which is to say, I want to have gods of Lesser and higher status to be so powerful that mortals have little to no chance of beating them. I want to have Sidereals so absurdly mighty that even Greater Gods tremble when thinking about the consequences of waking one. This is why I altered the "minimum HD" scale for my own campaigns, which are (perhaps ironically) starting to reach divine territory now so the scale is actually coming into play.

I still don't see how any of that works for you - but I love you for trying!

One PC in my original Epic game has reached true godhood (the character is a Hero-Deity now) and the others in that party are all pursuing it. In fact, they're pursuing it with vigor, since as a side effect of the ascension of the first character I had a "feedback pulse of excess energy" released during the ascension grant them all 2 levels/HD- the real point of this being to offset the large ECL boost that will happen with them once they get the templates themselves- but the players are happy to go after the largest XP boost they've ever had so it works nicely as an incentive as well.

He he! You gotta love the carrot & stick approach.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ltheb matey!

I voted B: 8:1 Demigod:Greater God ratio.

Statistically, its not too important, but the doubling mechanic (2 lesser tier entities equal one entity twice their power) is both aesthetically pleasing and easy.

Fluff-wise, it doesn't seem likely that 8 Demigods could challenge the Head of a Pantheon, or the equivalent. "Mook" giants* in the Norse pantheon, who were somewhat more than Monster Manual giants, pretty much have no chance of defeating Odin. Odin may only have one eye, but unless you have Dozens of super-skilled giants with favored enemy (Fimbultyr), our cyclopean overgod will have little trouble dispatching them or fleeing to the side of Thor. I may not be an expert on the Norse cosmology and it's divinity, but I hear he has a bit of a reputation for killing giants out of boredom.

So, by the way the fluff to me feels, I could accept 8 Demigods vs 1 Greater God, but I think thats the farthest the ratio of possibility goes, because that Greater God likely will have mooks as powerful or more powerful than the Demigods that face him otherwise. And since if such a direct encounter were to take place, more often then not those Demigods will be PC-type entities fighting against the big bad evil guy at the end of a campaign, I have no problem softening the encounter with a bit of villain-stupids. ("Why should I watch my foes die? I am sure my loyal henchmen will take care of them before they can stop me from activating the ultra-magical thingamabob...")

Math and stat wise - its fine either way, but as I noted above: the doubling thing is just plain easier.

(* - I am not equating Norse Giants to Demigods directly; I'd have to do a lot of reading to accurately place them at the right tier of power. I just used them as fluff comparison)

As I mentioned above to Adslahnit, that 8:1 Demigod vs. Greater Deity assumes:

1) That All the deities involved are 'typical' for their status, Odin is exceptional for his status. Hes basically right on the limit between Greater Power and Elder Power.

2) That the Greater God is 'caught' on his own and deigns not to summon any assistance.

3) That the fight doesn't take place on the Greater God's home plane.

To adhere to method B the differences are:

Disciple 11 HD + DvR 1 template
Prophet 12 HD + DvR 2 Template
Hero-deity 15 HD + DvR 3 Template
Quasi-deity 20 HD + DvR 4 Template

Demi-deity 28 HD + DvR 5
Lesser Deity 35 HD + DvR 7
Intermediate Deity 49 HD + DvR 9
Greater Deity 65 HD + DvR 12

Elder One 86 HD + DvR 16
Old One 111 HD + DvR 22
First One 149 HD + DvR 29

Demiurge Stage I 196 HD + DvR 39
Demiurge Stage II 260 HD + DvR 52
Demiurge Stage III 347 HD + DvR 69

Time Lord 461 HD + DvR 92

Of course, as you see it loses something of its elegance that way.

However, its not really that massive a difference until you get to the Greater Deity strata.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

By the way I got your email, the web comic looks interesting although still in development stages so its hard to see much of what hes coming up with beyond the character design which looks like classic manga-esque fare. I don't see the connection between Time Lords and Rollerblading Lesbian Catwomen in Hotpants. But I did love the background imagery for (I presume) the Seicross character, which looked like atomic structure building blocks crossed with how I see my own ideas for the 8th dimension - that was very cool.

You might have me confused with someone else dude.

But if this was a joke it was hilarious.