How often do your players multiclass?

[FrogReaver]

If you want to know more about how the +3 estimate is arrived at for precision attack you can check below:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?477370-Precision-Strike-How-to-calculate&highlight=Precision

 

[doctorbadwolf]

50% chance to hit is really low. The fighter/wizard is better off not taking GWM until Fighter 6, or only using it against low AC creatures, even with precision attack, which they can only do so often.

This calculation assumes the fighter never burns superiority dice on parry, or disarm, or anything else, which doesn’t match any experience I’ve ever seen of people actually playing BM fighters.

It also only even applies to Battlemaster/Wizards. Not a broadly applicable data set.

 

[FrogReaver]

50% chance to hit is really low. The fighter/wizard is better off not taking GWM until Fighter 6, or only using it against low AC creatures, even with precision attack, which they can only do so often.

This calculation assumes the fighter never burns superiority dice on parry, or disarm, or anything else, which doesn’t match any experience I’ve ever seen of people actually playing BM fighters.

It also only even applies to Battlemaster/Wizards. Not a broadly applicable data set.

Typical. You challenge the math. When that doesn’t pan out as you imagined you claim the concept is to specific. At this point I honestly believe you are just looking to dismiss whatever I say.

 

[Maxperson]

I’m curious how often players end up multiclassing. I find in my games that it’s fairly rare. Then again in my games we typically stay below level 11.

how often do they multiclass in your games? How often does word believe people multiclass?

I have one who almost always multi-classes, and three who almost never multi-class.

 

[Yunru]

Typical. You challenge the math. When that doesn’t pan out as you imagined you claim the concept is to specific. At this point I honestly believe you are just looking to dismiss whatever I say.

One build on one subclass is too specific.
You also don't get enough Superiority dice to pull it of as consistantly as you claim.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Typical. You challenge the math. When that doesn’t pan out as you imagined you claim the concept is to specific. At this point I honestly believe you are just looking to dismiss whatever I say.

That isn't what is happening here. I'm going to quote the entire exchange, because I'm a bit annoyed that you are doing this, now.

Depends on what you're multiclassing into. IMO, the melee weapon cantrips replace the need for extra attack pretty well, at least well enough to make waiting a few levels longer not hurt that much.

First, you seem to have forgotten what the starting statements were. I said the above, positing that the difference wasn't so great that the average player was going to be hurting over it...

I think It depends on if you are comparing to characters with damage feats or without them.

You responded, positing that damage feats will make the significant difference. By implication, I concluded that you were saying this in direct opposition to what I'd said...

Not really.

Unless there has been some ruling on twitter that makes no sense, GWM and SS both refer to attacks, but not to the attack action, so they work fine with cantrip weapon attacks.

PM references attack action for part of it, but that part does less extra damage than the cantrips, and the other part of the feat works fine, and is IME why people take the feat.

DW isn't an optimised feat, but even if it were, it plays just fine with Booming Blade.

So, no. Getting extra attack a few levels later isn't going to hurt much, and whatever small loss you feel from not getting a second -5+10 (and if it's something you are able to do twice a turn on a regular basis...your DM isn't challenging you) per turn will be made up for with the extras of the cantrips.

Obviously, I thought you were suggesting some incompatibility between the damage feats and melee weapon cantrips. I here present my doubt about being able to use the -5+10 regularly. At no point have either of us made this about the Battlemaster Fighter, specifically. It's pretty clear the discussion is in regards to the general case, so our statements should be true in general, not only in very specific white room cases.

Doing 1 attack with -5/+10 and accuracy fixes vs doing 2-3 attacks with -5/+10 with accuracy fixes is a huge difference even with the single attack getting 1d8 extra damage.

Btw, 2-3? What is the 3rd attack? From killing your foe or scoring a crit? Doesn't reference Attack Action, just an attack, so I was confused, but I just let it slide. You didn't use a third attack later, in any case, I'm just curious.

Anyway, another poster said that it's a 4 dpr difference.

At 15 ac i ge close to +8 DPR. That’s a bug DPR increase both relative and absolute for a level 5 character.

You countered.

What accuracy fix are you using that is reliable enough to count on being able to use the -5+10 most rounds?

I’d love to see those calculations, bc I rather doubt the +8 outside of calcs that are so white room as to be useless.

Again, no white room stuff that doesn't play out in actual games. i said that before you posted the numbers. And yet...

Sure I just hope I don't have to go into how precision attack works.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Battle Master Fighter 5 [16 str, GWM (-5/+10), precision attack (equivalent to about +3 attack on every attack in the adventuring day)] vs 15 AC

Attack = 3 (proficiency) + 3 (str) + 3 (precision) -5 (GWM) = 4 attack
Damage per hit = 7 (Greatsword) + 10 (GWM) + 3 (Str) = 20 Damage per hit

DPR = 50% chance to hit (+4 attack vs 15 AC) * 20 Damage Per Hit * 2 (Extra Attack) = 20 DPR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle Master Fighter 4 Wizard 1 [16 str, GWM (-5/+10), booming blade,(+1d8), precision attack (equivalent to about +3 attack on every attack in the adventuring day)] vs 15 AC

Attack = 3 (proficiency) + 3 (str) + 3 (precision) -5 (GWM) = 4 attack
Damage per hit = 7 (Greatsword) + 10 (GWM) + 3 (Str) + 4.5 (Booming Blade) = 24.5 Damage per hit

DPR = 50% chance to hit (+4 attack vs 15 AC) * 24.5 Damage Per Hit = 12.25 DPR

50% chance to hit is really low. The fighter/wizard is better off not taking GWM until Fighter 6, or only using it against low AC creatures, even with precision attack, which they can only do so often.

This calculation assumes the fighter never burns superiority dice on parry, or disarm, or anything else, which doesn’t match any experience I’ve ever seen of people actually playing BM fighters.

It also only even applies to Battlemaster/Wizards. Not a broadly applicable data set.

My response was entirely within the bounds of what I'd said. Your numbers are white room in the extreme. Not only does it assume a single build, it assumes that you're somehow using Precision Attack with every single attack. That is "so white room as to be useless."

A Fighter 4 also can't do that all day. Period. Even a level 7 Fighter with the extra die from the feat can only do that for a short time. A level 4 fighter who used their feat to get GWM can do that for two turns. Maybe your group gets a short rest after every fight, but I doubt that most groups do.

And if your Fighter never needs any other Manuever, your DM isn't challenging you. My BM fighters need Parry, and Disarm, and Goading Strike, etc. The ones that have the feat, only use it when they have advantage, or against a low AC enemy.

So, in the end, you proved that a single build will miss the extra attack for part of the day, and only if we assume that the secondary damage from the cantrip never happens, and don't calculate in any other spell benefits, and assume that their main subclass feature is turned into "spam one manuever always, twice a turn, and then have a terrible to-hit the rest of the time before a short rest."

Seems to me, my first take was right. The difference isn't that much, in general. You won't be noticeably worse off for it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

One build on one subclass is too specific.
You also don't get enough Superiority dice to pull it of as consistantly as you claim.

I do wish we could calculate a reasonable DPR for the secondary damage on Booming Blade. It varies too much by character and game, though. My swashbuckler/Bladesinger can use BB and then move away, focusing on enemies that are melee and who aren't engaged by my melee allies. Higher Initiative helps pull that off. It triggers fairly often, especially against enemies that aren't intelligent.

For a tanky gish? Best to stick with GFB, maybe. Although, BB does make you stickier, since most creatures won't want to take the extra damage on top of opportunity attacks.

There's a thought, how strong a 4e style sticky defender can we make with a gish? I haven't even looked at the defender style subclasses in 5e, because that isn't my playstyle.

Looks like the Battlemaster's Goading Strike, Booming Blade, and the Mobile feat (or the Magic Initiate feat and 3 levels of rogue for swashbuckler, or 3 of monk for Drunken Master, but we're building a gish here) will let you bop a critter with Booming Blade, mark them, and move away with impunity, but that's more of a chicken defender/melee kiter. Still, skip Mobile, stay put, and you've got a fighter that the enemy doesn't want to walk away from.

Then the Cavalier is over there, existing. Has a mark, with punishment attacks on the next turn if the enemy attacks a creature other than you. Nice! So, Mark, hit with Booming Blade, and if it tries to get away from you or attack your allies (be extra mean and have a second frontliner take Sentinel. team smash up in the front, like a wall of hot epoxy), it gets bopped again. All at will. I almost want to play that now...

Paladin's Oath of The Crown is fine, too, but less frequent, and who wants to play a MCd Paladin as a defender gish?

 

[FrogReaver]

That isn't what is happening here. I'm going to quote the entire exchange, because I'm a bit annoyed that you are doing this, now.



First, you seem to have forgotten what the starting statements were. I said the above, positing that the difference wasn't so great that the average player was going to be hurting over it...



You responded, positing that damage feats will make the significant difference. By implication, I concluded that you were saying this in direct opposition to what I'd said...



Obviously, I thought you were suggesting some incompatibility between the damage feats and melee weapon cantrips. I here present my doubt about being able to use the -5+10 regularly. At no point have either of us made this about the Battlemaster Fighter, specifically. It's pretty clear the discussion is in regards to the general case, so our statements should be true in general, not only in very specific white room cases.



Btw, 2-3? What is the 3rd attack? From killing your foe or scoring a crit? Doesn't reference Attack Action, just an attack, so I was confused, but I just let it slide. You didn't use a third attack later, in any case, I'm just curious.

Anyway, another poster said that it's a 4 dpr difference.



You countered.



Again, no white room stuff that doesn't play out in actual games. i said that before you posted the numbers. And yet...





My response was entirely within the bounds of what I'd said. Your numbers are white room in the extreme. Not only does it assume a single build, it assumes that you're somehow using Precision Attack with every single attack. That is "so white room as to be useless."

A Fighter 4 also can't do that all day. Period. Even a level 7 Fighter with the extra die from the feat can only do that for a short time. A level 4 fighter who used their feat to get GWM can do that for two turns. Maybe your group gets a short rest after every fight, but I doubt that most groups do.

And if your Fighter never needs any other Manuever, your DM isn't challenging you. My BM fighters need Parry, and Disarm, and Goading Strike, etc. The ones that have the feat, only use it when they have advantage, or against a low AC enemy.

So, in the end, you proved that a single build will miss the extra attack for part of the day, and only if we assume that the secondary damage from the cantrip never happens, and don't calculate in any other spell benefits, and assume that their main subclass feature is turned into "spam one manuever always, twice a turn, and then have a terrible to-hit the rest of the time before a short rest."

Seems to me, my first take was right. The difference isn't that much, in general. You won't be noticeably worse off for it.

You don't understand how precision works.

 

[FrogReaver]

One build on one subclass is too specific.
You also don't get enough Superiority dice to pull it of as consistantly as you claim.

If you choose to only use superiority dice when you believe you have missed by 4 or less then even with just 4 superiority dice you can make it through an average of 60 attacks before you exhaust your precision dice for the day (assuming 2 short rests). That's way longer than the typical adventuring day.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You don't understand how precision works.

I definitely do. You don't seem to understand how limited a resource it is, or how absurdly, uselessly, white room the idea of using SD on nothing else is.

You can't use it all the time. You can't rely on it to make most attacks with the -5+10.

At least 1/4, possibly more, of your attacks in most adventuring days will be made without knowing the exact AC of the enemy. You will misspend some of your superiority dice, or you will decline to use it when you ought to, at least a few times per adventure. Even if you don't, you don't have enough SD, and the player who is going to only ever use their SD for Precision Attack is going to be too rare to consider in a discussion of how playing a build will work out at the table.

Get out of the white room, and sit at a table with this.