D&D 4E How should 4E deal with the power of fire?

[Tewligan]

Well, I'm not "blaming" you, Edena. I'm just saying that, by the rules, the problems you're presenting don't actually exist. You're saying that fire renders foes helpless and demands multiple saves until everything is destroyed, and suggesting that it needs to be fixed in the rules. But since those problems only exist when house ruled into existence in the first place, there's nothing that needs to be fixed.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

It can start fires. A Frostball cannot do that. Nor a Sonicball, Forceball, Acidball (not likely, at least), or Other-type-ball.

Why couldn't they?

Later
silver

 

[kennew142]

I'm going to agree with the other posters here who've pointed out that the problems you've mentioned aren't due to the rules, but to (I will go so far as to say) bad GMing. House rules (especially rules designed to increase realism) are often the cause of more problems than they solve. I know I've made my share of house rules over the last three decades that turned out to be more trouble than they were worth.

 

[FadedC]

- In 3rd Edition, the designers compensated for the problem by ruling that clothing and magical items were basically invincible. That is, you get hit with enough heat to melt soft metals instantly (that's a lot of heat) but your fancy nobleman's clothing is unsinged.
Freed of the threat of mass destruction of their items, characters started decorating themselves like Christmas Trees with countless minor magical items of every description and type (and thus, we finally got to the polymorphed dog (or whatever it was) with all those magical items on it ... but the Polymorph debate is for another thread ... the very idea expressed in that picture would have been unthinkable in 1E, due to the threat of fire to carried items.)

That's not entirely true, many magic items in 3.x are in fact quite fragile and easy to destroy. The actual rule (at least in 3.0) was simply that none of your items take damage from an AoE unless you roll a 1 on your saving throw, and even then it was only a single item that got hit.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

flasks of oil are heavy, not always easily available, and if you are knocked down by a fireball and your flasks break, may turn you into a bonfire

also dousing someone in oil is not so easy. just throwing one flask is not sufficient. An enemy better should be helpless, to completely incinerate him.

 

[Kaisoku]

1d6 fire damage, especially in the upcoming 4e rules, wouldn't really be that much comparitive damage. Would it necessarily ignite things?

Remember, fire damage is basically "heat" in D&D, so being burned enough to do 1d6 damage (even per round) isn't really necessarily enough to ignite or engulf someone or something in flames and propagate more fire on other things.

It takes a LOT of heat, over a sustained period to "ignite" things.


Considering you can "put out" the flames with a full round action, I'd say it wasn't that much fire to begin with... not a full, head to toe bonfire. I've seen folks keep doing what they were doing while their clothes were a bit on fire and we had to TELL them to put it out... so fighting, and even possibly spellcasting (with enough zen, mind blanking) would easily be possible.


As for magical forms of fire, such as Fireballs or Dragon's breath, they are magical and instantaneous. They are a blast of heat that does damage and immediately disappears. Not really a sustained continuous 500 degree fire... more like a half second blast of heat that would overwhelm a person who couldn't protect themselves in time (reflex save, evasion, etc).

 

[Klaus]

It actually takes a sustained application fire to a substance to make it ignite. I've seen lit matches dropped into puddles of gasoline, and they didn't ignite.

 

[CanadienneBacon]

Gasoline that has gone "flat" ie: has no fumes is not an ignition-starter. It's the gas vapor that is the ignitable stuff. The liquid gas itself is not. If you leave a bucket of gas open to sit for a few days, you'll be able to drop a lit match into it and not have it combust.

 

[Tewligan]

If you leave a bucket of gas open to sit for a few days, you'll be able to drop a lit match into it and not have it combust.

Kids, don't try this at home!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I guess then, that we need rules that do not encourage such House Rulings - House Rulings that were almost universal in one DM after another's games I was in for years.

There was a lot of misunderstanding about oil in 1E. Eager players leaped on the vagarities of the situation to use fire as a Superweapon at low levels, while flummoxed amateur DMs watched their scenarios get fried.

Your posts make me think that very specific descriptions are needed concerning fire attacks, and fire spells.
For example, just exactly *how* long does a fireball stay in existence? Exactly how hot is it? (just say it will melt lead, as the 1E rules stated, is too vague.)

If oil 'splashes' a target for 1d3 points of damage (ala 1E), does that 'splash' mean the target is now partly covered in flames (save for items, make a full round action to put out the flames), or merely singed (no fire on the target at all) or something in between?

If a target is aflame (as per, engulfed in flames, movie-style) can that target take any action at all? Can the target take an action with a successful saving throw (against the pain.) Can the target take any action it pleases?
Just how much does the pain of being burned affect the target? For example, we know that if a wizard takes 3 points of fire damage, he must make a DC check against that damage to successfully cast a spell. In 4E, will he need to do this? Will anyone else need to do this?

If a target is only partially on fire (such as, his boot is on fire) and he takes no action to put it out, does that mean the fire spreads to the rest of his clothing? (fire does like to spread ...) Or does it go out (boot didn't want to burn ...) Or what?

I mean: When all is said and done, fire is a popular weapon (the effects of that weapon are ghastly, obviously.) Characters are going to play with fire. So fine. Let's have some exact definitions of how fire works in combat situations.

And smoke, too. If the whole dungeon corridor is smoked up until you can't see your hand in front of your face, that should have some effects. Partial Cover? Full Cover? Invisibility? Or how about simply checking Direction Sense so you don't blunder right into that wall, and knock yourself down?