How to get rid of the adversarial tone in the game

[Sound of Azure]

Railroading, GM Fiat, openly cheering for the Monsters, laughing at player failure, bad adventures that you won't give up when the players make it known they're unhappy, monsters clearly designed to exploit PC defects (when it happens too often anyways), bad decisions, crappy treasure, constant streams of hostile NPCs, over-reliance on die rolling in inappropriate situations ("I want to sell this Sword" "Ok, roll a Diplomacy check...Oops, bad roll. He kicks you out of his shop")...

Those sort of things tend to increase the 'us vs. GM' attitude.

Are you doing those sorts of things?

That was one of the things that turned me and my old group into the most efficient powergamers we could manage to be. We initially upped the dial just to survive, then the challenge of the opponents was raised again, and so on... continuing to escalate on both sides. Our PCs eventually became like the "Diamond Dogs" in Alastair Reynolds' short story of the same name: constructed purely for the dungeon and optomised for very specific roles/functions.

It was kind of fun in its own way, but I felt like I was missing out on a lot. Thankfully those needs were met when we rotated DMs every few months.

 

[Doghead Thirteen]

If anyone gets adversarial, the DM should punch them in the mouth.

Talk about counter-productive. Starting a fight at the gaming table is going to lead to you looking for new victims players.

Either that or getting charged with assault.

 

[Gundark]

Railroading, GM Fiat, openly cheering for the Monsters, laughing at player failure, bad adventures that you won't give up when the players make it known they're unhappy, monsters clearly designed to exploit PC defects (when it happens too often anyways), bad decisions, crappy treasure, constant streams of hostile NPCs, over-reliance on die rolling in inappropriate situations ("I want to sell this Sword" "Ok, roll a Diplomacy check...Oops, bad roll. He kicks you out of his shop")...

Those sort of things tend to increase the 'us vs. GM' attitude.

Are you doing those sorts of things?

I have to say no. At least I'm not meaning to.

After some thought I think it's the adventure path. We're playing in the Age of Worms. This is by far the deadliest thing that we have ever done. Before when I'd write the adventures the encounters we'ren't that deadly in comparison (at the time I thought they were deadly).

Some group dynamics

6 players, 2 play in the RPGA, 3 play in another group, one is my wife. The 3 that play in another group have a monte haul DM, they absolutely crush everything in their path. I used to play with them, but couldn't stand it. The 2 that play in the RPGA don't really have this "VS" mindset (apparently the RPGA adventures get pretty nasty too). The main complainers/adversarial players are the ones who also play in the "cakewalk" group. They complain and yet they claim to be having fun. I'm the kind of guy who is constantly checking to make sure that the players are having fun. I take it to be a failure on my part if someone at the table isn't having fun, this is suppost to be a game after all.

The complaining is getting to me, it's getting to the point where I'm not having fun, and I sometimes have thoughts of just saying "screw it" and quiting the campaign. I have anxiety before the games thinking "gee is this encounter going set the complaners off?". I said no to a feat cause I thought it was too abusive given the character build. I heard about it all night.

Now saying "ditch the whiners" isn't an option, they're good friends of mine and we have been friends for awhile. I guess I'm just dreading the enventual talk we're going to have. It'll be civil, I'm just not the best at expressing my annoyance to me friends (which is odd cuase I'm a threapist and teach others to commnicate).

 

[Mark CMG]

Roll all battle dice in the open and act disappointed when you kill a PC.

 

[S'mon]

Default 3e strongly encourages an adversarial stance I'd say. It encourages player empowerment and 'takes the GM out of the equation' via an intendedly all-encompassing ruleset and the CR/EL system.

I'd say the key was de-escalation, but this is difficult running an Adventure Path.

The natural tendency is escalation - they play hard, so you play harder, so they play harder... and so on. You need to avoid this. Stop playing to their strengths. Dial down the threat level; let them slaughter the monsters with their munchkin powergamey tactics. Let them have their easy victories - you don't have to do this in a nasty or mean-spirited way; think of it as a Hercules/Xena type TV show where the protagonists are simply far better than the opposition. Concentrate on other areas of the game that interest you - actual character interaction, say. Xena's relationship with her cohort Gabrielle was often more interesting than the warlord-of-the-week. Threats can either be easily beatable, or some demon god whose melee power is 20 CRs above their level, who has to be outthought rather than outfought (let them know he's 20 CRs over their level before they attack him, though!)*. Star Trek took this approach a lot.

Now, this isn't standard 3e. Standard 3e is based on a miniatures skirmish wargame where a group of PCs face a group of monsters of somewhat less power (about 1/2, actually, on the typical CRs) and try to defeat them with minimal resource expenditure. You can still have regular fights, but don't worry that the PCs only use 5% of their resources or whatever. The challenge may be to prevent any of the NPCs escaping, or to capture one alive, rather than survival.

*Actually, this may not be a good idea. True adversarial powergamers get really upset by hostile NPCs too powerful to kill (like the demon goddess Glory in Buffy season 5), and will keep dashing their heads against a brick wall trying to take him down. An entity who just lives in people's dreams/isn't really there, like the First Evil from Buffy season 7, may be better. It can't directly hurt them, they can't directly hurt it either.

 

[RedFox]

The complaining is getting to me, it's getting to the point where I'm not having fun, and I sometimes have thoughts of just saying "screw it" and quiting the campaign. I have anxiety before the games thinking "gee is this encounter going set the complaners off?". I said no to a feat cause I thought it was too abusive given the character build. I heard about it all night.

Now saying "ditch the whiners" isn't an option, they're good friends of mine and we have been friends for awhile. I guess I'm just dreading the enventual talk we're going to have. It'll be civil, I'm just not the best at expressing my annoyance to me friends (which is odd cuase I'm a threapist and teach others to commnicate).

Okay, first thing you gotta do is not let it get to you. If you're miserable and experiencing anxiety due to the game, you're not having fun. If you're not having fun and you're the DM, then the players aren't going to have fun because you're going to make the game suck. It's a vicious cycle, so you've got to nip that in the bud right now.

It sounds like you're maybe a little too invested in how these people are acting. Moreover, people are usually aware of emotional cues. If they bitch and wheedle at you all night, it's because they can tell it's making you uncomfortable and they're probably just hoping you'll give in to make them stop.

My advice would be to make it clear to them when they complain that you're doing everything you can to make the game both fair and fun for everybody involved. If they're not satisfied with your decisions, that's fine but continuing to complain during the game isn't acceptable. Between sessions, discuss any decisions you made and listen to their arguments but be firm about the "not during the game" thing. If they don't find that acceptable, they can find another game.

 

[William drake]

To be truthful, it is You Vs Them...but; it shouldn't be "The DM is out to get us, and how can we fix it" I think you might need less combat, more RP....and let them face foes where there is one bad guy that is tough, and around him, are those that they can show off their skills through kicking them down like so much pooh.

sorry, last line was a past player use to say when fighting bad guys.

 

[S'mon]

I The complaining is getting to me, it's getting to the point where I'm not having fun, and I sometimes have thoughts of just saying "screw it" and quiting the campaign. I have anxiety before the games thinking "gee is this encounter going set the complaners off?". I said no to a feat cause I thought it was too abusive given the character build. I heard about it all night.

Now saying "ditch the whiners" isn't an option, they're good friends of mine and we have been friends for awhile. I guess I'm just dreading the enventual talk we're going to have. It'll be civil, I'm just not the best at expressing my annoyance to me friends (which is odd cuase I'm a threapist and teach others to commnicate).

Yeah, this goes beyond normal 3e adversarialism.

You need to tell them:

1. Stop complaining. With the complaints, you're not having fun.
2. If you're not having fun, you won't GM.

What I strongly dislike about 3e is that it both empowers the players AND at the same time makes the game very hard work for the GM. If the players abuse their power, it just isn't worth the effort.

 

[RedFox]

Also, notice that you're using prejudicial terms like "the whiners" to describe them. You're already in an adversarial mode. That's because they're getting to you.

Try to assume a referee attitude instead. You're trying to be fair and impartial, but at the same time dealing with a lot of crap isn't fun, and you're there to have fun.

That said, if these guys enjoy a cakewalk, then think about throwing more cakewalk stuff at them. It costs you absolutely nothing to throw lowball EL encounters at these guys and let them feel like badasses. You can still have your normal EL encounters as well.

Letting people beat up on mooks is a fine tradition. Just make sure that it's done with style and panache. Give them balconies to chuck orcs off of, sleezy merchants to intimidate, and deadly traps that don't work well on their immunities or resistances.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

As the challenge level ramps up, good players become more competitive. They're motivated to beat the challenges.

Psychologically speaking, you can't change that without dropping the challenge level.