How to keep players motivated (or, "change that smelly old carrot once in a while")

[mmadsen]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the old D&D boxed systems did a marvelous job of handling munchkin tendencies... by giving players new foci and new goals and new carrots.

I never had the old boxed sets, just AD&D, but I agree that this is a great way to run a campaign, and I wish the core 3E books handled these different stages in a bit more detail.

In addition to the upcoming book on strongholds, I'd like to see a book on running a kingdom (or guild, or whatever, something like what Birthright offered), a book on epic-level magic (what do high-level wizard do?), etc.

 

[Creamsteak]

I ran a rokugan campaign for four months and the characters were sparcely leveled (some of them were fond of making magic items and spent quite a bit of xp creating scrolls of magic missle and Fireball).

In four months they were levels 4-6 depending on which player was at which sessions. They bought a Mansion sized home (8 PCs with various players, played during different session) so they easily could have bought a tiny keep inside a city (similar to a mansion with a gate, and wall).

They gained there first level on the second session. They gained their third on the third session (a long one, however). They gained their fourth on session #7 and some of them were level five at that point.

I think that the 3rd edition DMG should have dealt a little more with story rewards -rather than just "mentioning" them. It would have helped to have a less vague idea of what a "risk" for a story reward would be. Is talking the town bully down a risk, even if the players could kill him the instant he initiates combat? What if killing them would get them in trouble with town, but they are guaranteed safety because they are working under the local Meshif?

 

[The Sigil]

Re: Re: How to keep players motivated (or, "change that smelly old carrot once in a while"

Actually, I don't think you're comparing apples to apples, here. You're using FOUR sets from Basic D&D, and then comparing them to one core rulebook set (three books, but for all intents and purposes, one set).

I actually think I am comparing apples to apples. The four sets were later consolidated into one book (the Rules Cyclopedia) and were simply a way of "breaking up" the entire system into bite-sized chunks. The rules didn't "change" when you went from the Basic Set to the Expert Set because there really wasn't a treatment of 4th level and beyond in the Basic Set. Basic D&D is not just the Basic Set and Expert Set because that does not contemplate levels above 14th. It is all four boxed sets taken together as a unified whole. In the same way, 3rd edition is not just the rules for 1st-3rd level characters, but rather the rules in the SRD taken as a whole (including, eventually, the Epic-Level handbook).

The issue I was trying to point out is that by breaking up the system into chunks based on character level and then presenting different "carrots" for each "chunk," Basic D&D showed that it is a good idea to occasionally change the carrots offered to players. That is because when a player reached 4th level, the player (and/or DM) had to go get the Expert Set - and suddenly a new set of challenges and carrots became evident.

I am going to assume that the Epic Level Handbook is part of the "Core 3e System" in the same way since it covers rules for levels beyond 20. I am *REALLY* hoping that this work gives a treatment for DMs on how to reward characters without throwing ever-increasing amounts of gold and/or ever-more-powerful magic items at them.

The topics you discussed are all available, just not in the core books. You're getting the Stronghold book, the Epic Level book and you've already got Manual of the Planes. Remember, 3e was supposed to be "Back to the Dungeon".

I am not disputing that the material is available - the issue to me is not availability but rather, "does 3rd edition teach you/show you how to change the carrots?" In my mind, the answer is, "no, it does not." The DMG barely touches upon any rewards other than magical treasures, gold, and XP. It's not a matter of "do the rules exist," it's a matter of "are new - and old - DMs shown how to properly use these rules as incentives to their PCs?"

The point is, in both Basic D&D and 3e they have given you the tools. However, in Basic D&D they provided an "owner's manual" detailing the methods for using these tools to incent your players while 3e has not.

2e had tons of supplemental material like this, and unless my memory was faulty, there was plenty of material in AD&D 1e for fighting your way to the top. After all, in 1e, you couldn't obtain some levels unless you KILLED the person already holding that level, or somehow got them to 'step down' from being the Guildmaster or the like.

I don't know that this changes the carrot, though... it just seems like it gives you another monster/NPC to fight. The point in both systems is always "accumulate XP, rise in level," but the "other stuff" that you might want to collect is at issue... gold, magic, armies, land, noble titles, etc.

And 2e and 1e both suffered from the same problem I am pointing out here... they gave you the tools but didn't show you how to use them - and didn't really stress using them. The focus in the DMG in 1e, 2e, and 3e seems to be "kill the monster, grab the treasure" with almost no mention of anything else PCs might do to gain power. In the real world, having someone important owe you a favor is almost as good as - and sometimes better than - an amount of cash. Having a position of importance gives you power just as well as money does. It just seems to me that 1e/2e/3e have never addressed these forms of "political" and "social" power as a desirable goal... it's always cash/magic items.

You also seem to level your group faster than most that I've met, unless you meet very regularly. The Savage Sword of Meepo (my players) have been playing for almost two years, and are only 12th-14th level. That's after clearing Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury, three Homebrew adventures running a total of 18 to 20 sessions, and Nightfang Spire.

How often are you handing out XP?

I hand out XP "on the fly" - immediately after each encounter/trap/whatever. If a PC levels "in the dungeon" he immediately gains the following benefits of the new level - hit points, Saves, and BAB. All other abilities (spells, Feats, Skills, etc.) must wait until he gets back to "civilization" and has time to train/study/whatever. Characters can advance multiple levels "in the dungeon," but gaining most of the benefits of those levels is delayed.

They do pick up "story awards" - bonuses of 500 to 2500 XP (depending on their level) if they reach the "end" (defined as "accomplishing the final goal or beating up the big boss") of a published (or home-brewed) adventure.

I do this (XP on the fly) because I run a rather deadly campaign and the PCs need all the help they can get - I don't pull punches. I had at least one PC death every 2 or 3 sessions and frequent Heal checks were the only thing that kept things from getting more lethal (I warned my players up front about the lethality).

IMO, handing XP out only "at the end of the adventure" seems a bit odd (handing it out at the end of a session is okay with me, as well - it still feels somewhat natural)... are you going to tell me that if I run through the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil with you, I am only going to gain one level tops because I don't get XP just because I didn't get to the end of some arbitrary book? If I go into a dungeon, kill a bunch of goblins, then get bored and decide to go somewhere else, do I get 0 XP just because I didn't reach the "end" of the dungeon and kill the chief goblin?

I'm not trying to be mean-spirited, I'm just trying to get clarification on what you mean by "the end of the adventure." If it's defined as "going through all 32 or 64 or 128 published pages" I think it's a very poor way to award experience as it means players may have to be railroaded to the end of the adventure just to pick up their XP.

I agree that 3e needs these things...I just don't think they're actually missing them.

Again, 3e provides the tools, but doesn't provide a "how to" guide... and that's where I think the ball was dropped.

--The Sigil

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

Well, Sigil’s right... kinda. I don’t disagree that 3E pretty much leaves DMs high and dry when it comes to system-defined rewards other than "Experience Awards" and "Treasure". There’s a tiny little section on p.172 called "Other Rewards" that more or less points out exactly what Sigil’s been saying: that in order to keep the game interesting, PCs are going to need more than just XP and gold coins. It basically states that as characters rise in levels, they rise in notoriety and the game should reflect that.

[p.172 DMG ]: Heroes are often awarded grants of land (which aid in the building of strongholds), decrees of friendship from communities they have rescued and even honorary titles of nobility. [/p.172 DMG]

So the DMG does, in fact, acknowledge the necessity and inevitability of rewards other than the Big Two discussed in Chapter 7... it just doesn’t have lengthy mechanical methodologies proscribing the adjudication of such rewards, choosing to leave these more amorphous elements in the hands of the DM.

I guess that’s what supplements like the StrongholdBGB are for. The characters in my party were promised townhouses in the swank section of Brindinford if they would find and return the Baron’s lost son (the paladin from Standing Stone)... they haven’t made it back yet (SideTreks®), and I’m looking forward to pricing their "carrots"... which brings up a quick point: is ShBGb just an extension of the "Treasure" section? I mean, if the rules basically help convert gp into strongholds, how is the "carrot" really changing, other than to present more options for things to buy with gold?

Also, let’s not forget Prestige Classes, which I feel are intended to be "carrots" of a sort. A player in my group has been training night and day since 2nd level to learn the fine magical and martial arts required to become an Arcane Archer. As far as "name" levels go, I think you see their replacement in PrCs.

All said, I think the ultimate "carrot" proposed in the DMG seems to be the game itself. Well-run, well-prepared, engaging, exciting and fun. If you run the game right, the players will keep coming back for more. I’m not trying to ring my own bell (only a little), but I run my game as close to the manner outlined in the DMG as I can. My campaign has been running for a year and a half (a little more, actually), and no "carrot issues" yet. If it’s not a town under assault from devilish hordes, it’s a dungeon full of kewl dwarven stuff. If it’s not a few missing merchant children, it’s a wacky town in the middle of the forest with weird ancient druidic stuff all around. If the characters have something solid to sink their teeth into, "smelly carrots" get forgotten about (by many) in favor of just playing the game.

Player #1: "Dude, now that’s over with let’s get back to Brindinford and collect on our reward!"
Player #2: "What reward?"
Player #3: "Oh yeah... we were promised townhouses right?"
Player #1: "Damn right! I’m gonna put traps all over the place..."
Player #4: "[to me] Hey, when’s the next game? Two weeks right? Right?"

 

[mmadsen]

I think that the 3rd edition DMG should have dealt a little more with story rewards -rather than just "mentioning" them. It would have helped to have a less vague idea of what a "risk" for a story reward would be. Is talking the town bully down a risk, even if the players could kill him the instant he initiates combat? What if killing them would get them in trouble with town, but they are guaranteed safety because they are working under the local Meshif?

That sounds like a situation where classes and levels don't play as well as a skill-based system. Sometimes it's nice to be able to say, "OK, your Diplomacy skill goes up."

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: Re: How to keep players motivated (or, "change that smelly old carrot once in a while&q

Again, 3e provides the tools, but doesn't provide a "how to" guide... and that's where I think the ball was dropped.

I think you make a great point, Sigil, and I noticed a similar point being made over at gamingreport.com, where they were discussing d20 Call of Cthulhu (and other games).

A fellow named Mearls explained his experiences with a handful of diverse games:

I and the other primary GM amongst my friends had no idea what the heck we were supposed to DO with those games.

I clearly remember spending a week poring over SR [Shadowrun], learning the rules, making up characters, and then sitting back on a Thursday evening and trying hard as hell to come up with an idea for an adventure that weekend.

I couldn't think of one. I had no idea HOW I was supposed to use all this stuff.

Same thing happened with Ars Magica.

And Millenium's End.

And Warhammer.

When it came time to make up an adventure or plan a short campaign, I didn't have clue one about what I was supposed to do.

Except with Cthulhu. Reading the rules and devouring a paperback of HPL's stories didn't help me at all, but the adventures in the back of the book made it crystal clear what we were supposed to do with the game. The classic haunted house scenario laid the entire game down in 4 pages: characters hear about weird events, go to investigate, uncover bizarre horrors, possibly go insane, gain sanity if they "win".

I ran that adventure, along with the others in the book, a couple from White Wolf magazine, and then ran out and bought two more adventure collections while making up a bunch of my own. We were hooked.
...
The problem with RPGs, IMHO, is that they all have a stereotypical adventure structure buried within them, but precious few take the time to actually spell out that structure. The old red box D&D basic set from 1983 did a good job with that. It basically gave you a sample stocked dungeon and a second dungeon map and said "fill this with monsters." CoC did that, too, though more by example with the half-dozen example scenarios it includes.
...
I think the key to building a successful RPG doesn't begin with the rules or setting. I think it begins with creating an easily understood, highly customizable, and very flexible core scenario that a GM can duplicate again and again. The setting and rules are all window dressing on top of that core scenario.

 

[MavrickWeirdo]

Something that might help with characters building a place in their world is "Old One's D20 economic model". I'm not sure where on the boards it is, but seek and you shall find.

 

[Psion]

I dunno spencer. I find your selection of carrots offered a little confining.

By your own analysis, the "carrots" that the boxed sets provides are:

1) Treasure and gold

2) Homesteading and acheivement

3) Rulership, Dominion, and Exploration

4) Immortality

Okay. First off, these seem rather specific to me. Though treasure, gold, and acheivement are often used in D&D, I think that there are many ways to motivate characters without touching strongholds.

I typically think of things in terms that the Traveller section on refereeing taught. There are 5 parts to an adventure, the basics, the push, the pull, the gimmick, and the enigma.

The push and pull are primary motivation techniques.

The push is things that force the character to act to avoid a negative consequence. The barbarian hordes after the heroes, the cops trying to arrest them, etc. This is a stick vice a carrot.

The pull is what you might call a carrot. No big surprise here, but a carrot can vary in shape. It can be any of the things you mentioned in the boxed sets. Or it can be something else depending on how you set up your game.

 

[The Sigil]

Points taken...

I dunno spencer. I find your selection of carrots offered a little confining.

By your own analysis, the "carrots" that the boxed sets provides are:

1) Treasure and gold

2) Homesteading and acheivement

3) Rulership, Dominion, and Exploration

4) Immortality

Okay. First off, these seem rather specific to me. Though treasure, gold, and acheivement are often used in D&D, I think that there are many ways to motivate characters without touching strongholds.

I won't dispute that these are somewhat specific and confining. The larger point I was trying to make is that in the Boxed Sets, DMs are at least encouraged to swap carrots and given examples of various types of carrots. In the 3e DMG, almost no advice is given on how to do it. In other words, it's not the specific selection of carrots that I am taking issue with, it's the concept of "you can change carrots" that doesn't seem to be taught in the 3e DMG.

As mentioned, Prestige Classes can be one of them, too (which, BTW, the Boxed Sets put out there with the Druid, Paladin, and Avenger "Prestige Classes"). There is a limitless variety of carrots. However, as another poster mentioned, the failure of most current RPGs is that they do not sufficiently address the issue of "how to create an adventure" and "how to be creative as a DM." They are so focused on game mechanics that they forget to address the "fine art of DMing" - including how to create a memorable dungeon, how to motivate players, and (especially) giving numerous examples. For "veteran" DMs, this is not a problem - but for newbie DMs, it IS a problem.

IIRC, the Basic Set had one full level of a dungeon to get you started, with maps to a second level and suggestions on a third (earlier editions came with Keep on the Borderlands). The Expert Set came with the Isle of Dread adventure. The Companion Set came with sample tournaments and prizes. The Masters Set came with sample artifacts and suggested quest ideas. In every case, it wasn't just "here are the rules," but rather "here are the rules and here's what you can do with them."

I typically think of things in terms that the Traveller section on refereeing taught. There are 5 parts to an adventure, the basics, the push, the pull, the gimmick, and the enigma.

The push and pull are primary motivation techniques.

The push is things that force the character to act to avoid a negative consequence. The barbarian hordes after the heroes, the cops trying to arrest them, etc. This is a stick vice a carrot.

The pull is what you might call a carrot. No big surprise here, but a carrot can vary in shape. It can be any of the things you mentioned in the boxed sets. Or it can be something else depending on how you set up your game.

Agree completely, and I had forgotten about that section in Traveller. All five of the elements are not always there by necessity, but it is a very good point. It's one of the reasons that I (unlike many) rather liked Necromancer Games' "The Wizard's Amulet." I heard a lot of people complaining, "it's too short. It's too simplistic." I thought it was perfect for an "introductory adventure." It contained numerous "sidebar" discussions on how to use the rules, how to scale an encounter, how to execute deux ex machina without it feeling forced if the PCs are getting thumped, and so on.

Was it a little campy and not quite mechanically sound? Perhaps. But it fills a niche for beginning DMs that WotC itself (and many other publishers) missed - the all-important "first adventure" (as in, the DM's first adventure, not the PCs' first adventure). I am not saying that the Boxed Sets' choice of carrots are all-encompassing or perfect. I am saying, "at least they showed you how to change things up," something that 3e, in my mind, failed to do. Heck, 1e and 2e failed to do it. Is this a flaw with the game itself? Absolutely not. However, it is kind of a bad oversight - much like your first calculus teacher assuming his students are already as fluent with calculus as he is.

Many of us "old-timers" don't need these lessons because we learned them long ago. That's why we don't miss them when they are absent. In fact, we usually get a little bit annoyed if they are included. As anecdotal evidence, I point to the Hero Builder's Guidebook. Most of the reviews I saw were, "what a piece of crap - anyone who's been in role-playing for any significant amount of time already knows this. Why would WotC print this garbage? I am offended that they are trying to charge money for it!" That was my first reaction, too. I certainly won't buy the thing.

Then I stumbled across a review (can't remember where - it might even be yours for all I know, Psion ) that said, in essence, "if you are familiar with RPGs, this book wasn't MEANT for you and no wonder you don't like it... it was meant for the new guy... you know, the guy WITHOUT any significant amount of time playing RPGs (the guy who is NOT in the group you are complaining doesn't need this stuff). He doesn't know the common assumptions. He may need help getting a kickstart. The thing that disappoints me is that they are charging the new guy extra - this material really belongs in the Players' Handbook. The Players' Handbook is supposed to teach you how to play - and teaching you how to play is more than just explaining the dry rules, it's also about explaining how to role-play and how to come up with a character concept." And you know what? After reading that and thinking about it, I had to agree with that assessment. I won't buy it myself, because I don't need it, but I *will* recommend it to new players.

Anyway, I've kind of gone long and wordy, but it boils down to this...

The exact choice of carrots wasn't important - the illustration of the fact that there are different carrots - and their use - was important because it taught you "how to swap carrots" (more so than which carrots to use). I believe it was an important part of the Boxed Sets (and other introductory games such as Traveller) that 3rd Edition missed in the Core Rulebooks by only giving perfunctory lip service to these "other rewards" rather than actively illustrating how to use them.

We can argue about what carrots taste good all day. My point was maybe there's more to salad than carrots - but 3e does a poor job of telling us what those other parts might be.

--The Sigil

 

[mmadsen]

So, if we were to upgrade the current Adventure Game to a more thorough Basic Set (see Adventure Game vs. Basic Set), what would you like to see in that first box? What kind of advice?