I begin to worry...

[Hussar]

First off, I would like to state that I am NOT a 4e hater. I like the trend toward at-will abilities, the warlock, fey, etc. However, I am growing worried about 4e. One would probably wish to ask why.

I am worried about the magic system.

1) Sacrificing Fun on the altar of Fun I am worried about the loss of save-or-sucks. I can see the removal of the save-or-dies, though I might not agree with it. However, I have come across people complaining about paralysis and stun. There was a thread a while back entitled "What about when ruining your opponent's fun is your fun?" I think a large percentage of D&D spellcaster players would agree with this. Locking an opponent down IS fun, and, while it can happen to you, it makes your final victory over the BBEG much more fun. Also, in the majority of the playtest reports, the wizards seemed to be throwing around mostly fire blasts, implying that this is their strongest attack. I haven't seen any paralysis, stun, or anything except the sleep spell, and it looks like the wizard as controller will be mainly a blaster. Yes, there are some teleports, disguise self, that telekinetic strike thing and minor invisibility as the effects we know of. Also, has ANY 3.5 spellcaster cared about crits on a spell? I mean, they're nice on ray spells...but in 3.5, damage spells suck, and you have so many cool options anyway.

Sure, locking down an opponent is fun. But, it also sucks when the wizard drops a second level Web spell and nerfs your entire encounter. Also, if you look at your two points: damage spells suck vs wizards seem to be chucking around a lot of damage spells - I think you have your answer. Damage spells will no longer suck as badly. Hopefully, they'll be brought back in line with the huge increase in hit points that monsters got in 3e.

2)Anime Names Two Words: Emerald Frost. I have a friend who reads a heck of a lot of anime. He has assured me that this is quite the anime name.

Oh, please. One name? One name and now the game is too anime? Holy crap, can we PLEASE stop beating this horse?

3)Hit points If these things aren't wounds, then what the heck are they? They've been defined as a character's ability to turn a hit into a miss. So, what distinguishes a hit on HP from a miss? Most games I've played in describe HP as physical wounds, and now it looks like the casters will be shoehorned into damage.

You're a little mistaken here. It's not the ability to turn a hit into a miss. It's the ability to turn a serious hit into a nick. Major difference.

4) The wizard is now a shadow Looks like the wizard will be stripped of much of his power, so that the fool with the metal stick can compete with the guy who can reshape reality with his mind.

Please assuage my doubts.

Considering so many books in 3e tried to get the fighter up to wizard power and failed, I'm thinking the problem may be with the wizard.

 

[Henry]

Damage spells will no longer suck as badly. Hopefully, they'll be brought back in line with the huge increase in hit points that monsters got in 3e.

On the other hand, 100 different types of damage spells and no other types of spells would suck mightily, so hopefully battlefield control will be more extensive than just "pushing your enemies around." Things that can blind, deafen, mind control, cut off, disorient, and stun your opponents still need to be there for me, or that will be a really bad flaw on a new edition.

You're a little mistaken here. It's not the ability to turn a hit into a miss. It's the ability to turn a serious hit into a nick. Major difference.

Agreed, and that's the way we've always played it since there were hit points, in fact. John Maclane at the end of Die Hard is a good example of an adventurer down to his last 5 or 10 hit points, and down a couple of CON and DEX points, from a total of a couple hundred hit points. He took a serious beating, but still could have taken down a few more bad guys.

Considering so many books in 3e tried to get the fighter up to wizard power and failed, I'm thinking the problem may be with the wizard.

I'm still on the fence with that one, because I've seen an off-guard wizard get trounced by a fighter before, and the limits of their spells per day meant they needed to be judicious in their power usage. However, with the new meme of "power all day long," I agree they did need to "nerf" the wizards and clerics to make them more in line with the fighters and rogues.

 

[Hussar]

On the other hand, 100 different types of damage spells and no other types of spells would suck mightily, so hopefully battlefield control will be more extensive than just "pushing your enemies around." Things that can blind, deafen, mind control, cut off, disorient, and stun your opponents still need to be there for me, or that will be a really bad flaw on a new edition.

Oh, definitely agree with this one. I'm hoping that blast spells (for lack of a better term) will be reduced to something like: Level X Blast - Pick an energy type, you do XdX damage with this spell. No more taking up page after page with essentially the same spell with different damage.

I think you'll see quite a few "utility" type spells in the wizard's portfolio. You might lose out on the all or nothing types, but, if you look at the Shadowcaster spells in Tome of Magic, I'm thinking that's the direction they may go. Spells that carry some sort of kicker in certain circumstances. Like a ray of energy that does damage and also randomly teleports the victim somewhere else. Things like that.

 

[Andor]

You're a little mistaken here. It's not the ability to turn a hit into a miss. It's the ability to turn a serious hit into a nick. Major difference.

Yeah... That explaination almost sorta works for melee combat. It breaks down however when you consider that a 1st level character can die from tripping down a flight of stairs, but a high level one can survive orbital re-entry.

 

[Henry]

Yeah... That explaination almost sorta works for melee combat. It breaks down however when you consider that a 1st level character can die from tripping down a flight of stairs, but a high level one can survive orbital re-entry.

If they had just listened to me years ago, and made falling do CON damage instead of hit point damage, this argument would GO AWAY!!!

 

[Hussar]

Yeah... That explaination almost sorta works for melee combat. It breaks down however when you consider that a 1st level character can die from tripping down a flight of stairs, but a high level one can survive orbital re-entry.

I dealt with this in the other thread talking about hp's. I'll repeat things here.

HP's are abstract. The problem is, people want to make the mechanics fit the narrative, rather than the other way around. When the high level fighter jumps off the cliff, he doesn't free fall to the bottom and go splat. We know he didn't because he still has hp's left and walks away.

For the same reason, we don't describe a killing blow before damage is rolled in combat.

Instead, the fighter hit some shrubs and branches on the way down, slowing his fall and landed in a deep pile of pine needles at the bottom. Thus, the narrative fits the mechanics, in exactly the way it should be in a RPG. We don't declare the results of an action before the dice are rolled, ever. This is no different.

Make the narrative fit the action, not the other way around.

 

[FireLance]

Yeah... That explaination almost sorta works for melee combat. It breaks down however when you consider that a 1st level character can die from tripping down a flight of stairs, but a high level one can survive orbital re-entry.

So what you do is, you turn falling into a round of combat in which the ground attacks you. And can deal you a critical hit, if it's lucky. This is actually the case in Star Wars Saga Edition.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

If they had just listened to me years ago, and made falling do CON damage instead of hit point damage, this argument would GO AWAY!!!

You know, that's such an obviously good idea. Huh.

As regards the original topic, I'm with the people that say "Just wait and see!"

You've got to remember that at this stage we know almost nothing about 4e. Remember how many things we got wrong about how 3e was going to work?

 

[Danzauker]

If your friend tells you he's reading a lot of anime, he isn't.

Expecially since it's actually hard to READ anime. Usually you read manga.

 

[Gundark]

Well at this stage nothing will calm your worries. We know nothing of mechanics or what-not. The preview book comes out next month, maybe then you'll get your answers.

Until then it's best to not worry, really it'll do nothing for you.