D&D 5E I have the DMG!

Chocolategravy

First Post
Another thing, if your AC of 28 can only occur with magic armor and magic shields and magic wondrous items and the like, this edition does not have have magic math figured in.

So it has bounded accuracy as long as you don't do the math and just pretend really hard.

Magic items are supposed to be bennies, rewards for something exceptional. If you hand out items like in prior editions, you have only yourself to blame if the game gets unbalanced.

Actually, if you hand out magic items, you're doing what you're supposed to do according to the DMG, and you're doing what the official modules tell you to do, and you're doing what the official D&D Adventures League tells you to do.

So if you believe the DM is to blame, then what they're to blame for, is doing what the game designers told them to do rather than ignoring them.
 

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MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
I just realised that I wont actually GET the DMG until Mid Jan. I know it comes out to most shops in America by the 9th. But it wont make shipping deadlines to make it to Aus by Christmas. Thus mid Jan Im thinking.

Sad :(

It will be in the Sydney warehouse by the end of next week, from my information.
 

Dausuul

Legend
I haven't read the entire thread after this and I get the feeling this may have been discussed, but can you please tell me why you think this is so? Not being sarcastic, I an genuinely curious. How is an AC of 28 possible and for what characters?

From what I know, Bounded Accuracy was mainly for monster AC and lower attack roll numbers. This was mostly to ensure insane bonues were kept low simply for ease around the gaming table, so people would spend less time on minutae of the rules and more time on actual playing. The entire system was designed around and including this, so it is not like a level 1 group of pcs can smack around an ancient dragon and win. Thus far the system appears to be working well.

Another thing, if your AC of 28 can only occur with magic armor and magic shields and magic wondrous items and the like, this edition does not have have magic math figured in. Magic items are supposed to be bennies, rewards for something exceptional. If you hand out items like in prior editions, you have only yourself to blame if the game gets unbalanced.

Hypothetically, if you had +3 full plate and a +3 shield, that's 10 (base) +11 (armor) +5 (shield) for AC 26. Throw in a few other defensive goodies, like that fighting style the name of which I forget offhand, and some minor defensive buff, and you can get up to 28.

But I agree that when you've got two legendary magic items on, you're straining the bounds of reasonableness. 24-25 is more likely as a top end.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
The bounded accuracy math works up to 30, just like AD&D math worked from 20 to -10. AC of 28 is legendary and wondrous, befitting someone of level 20 wielding two legendary items.

Anything above 20 is awesome; and it will come across as awesome. But 30 has remained that peak number, across anything we've seen.
 

Chocolategravy

First Post
The bounded accuracy math works up to 30

It doesn't. Even the CR 17 Death Knight is only +11 to attack, so needs a 19+ rendering it free XP. Most monsters in the game need a 20. Rendering monsters unable to present a challenge to the party due to being unable to hit means bounded accuracy is completely busted. There are plenty of games out there with bounded accuracy, this is definitely not one of them.

AC of 28 is legendary and wondrous, befitting someone of level 20 wielding two legendary items.

AC 28 is a 20 barbarian with nothing but a nonmagic shield and codpiece of modesty buffed with haste and shield of faith.

AC 28 is a fighter 2 wizard 18 with nonmagic plate and shield buffed with haste and shielding himself with his free shield spell.

AC 28 is not even HAVING a magic item. Give that barbarian the helm from HotDQ and a +3 shield and a ring of protection and he's at 37 and even CR 24 monsters need a 20 to hit him and CR 30 needs 18. Give the wizard +3 plate and shield and a ring +1 he's a 35.

Of course the real problem isn't even the AC in the barbarian's case, the problem is he only takes at most 1/2 damage from anything anyway.

Anything above 20 is awesome; and it will come across as awesome. But 30 has remained that peak number, across anything we've seen.

Above 20 isn't awesome. 23 is your generic 2nd level (or whatever level they can afford it) paladin in nonmagic plate and shield with shield of faith up.
 
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bganon

Explorer
I'd say bounded accuracy is alive and well when a PC with the most powerful plate armor and shield in the game still has a greater than 1/20 chance of being hit by most CR 14+ monsters (many such monsters have +10 or more to their attacks). Certainly more bounded accuracy than previous editions.

Actually, do we have confirmation that there are shields with a +3 magic enhancement on top of all other bonuses? The original post that I saw didn't seem clear to me.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
It doesn't. Even the CR 17 Death Knight is only +11 to attack, so needs a 19+ rendering it free XP. Most monsters in the game need a 20. Rendering monsters unable to present a challenge to the party due to being unable to hit means bounded accuracy is completely busted. There are plenty of games out there with bounded accuracy, this is definitely not one of them.
Bounded accuracy just means putting an upper and lower limit on bonuses that are within parameters that make sense. In this case it is impossible to get an AC so high that the best monster in the book needs a 20+ to hit you. That means that accuracy is bounded. This is in contrast to situations where it was possible to get ACs of 50 or 60 in 3.5e and make the best monster in the game need 30s+ to hit you.

The numbers are bounded to the d20. If you follow the guidelines, monsters of around your level should never hit on a 2 and never hit only on a natural 20(on the members of the party that are meant to be in melee combat).

That's what the math was designed to do.

Plus, a Death Knight doesn't need to hit with its sword to kill a party. It can do a fireball that will hurt a party really bad regardless of their AC.

AC 28 is a 20 barbarian with nothing but a nonmagic shield and codpiece of modesty buffed with haste and shield of faith.

AC 28 is a fighter 2 wizard 18 with nonmagic plate and shield buffed with haste and shielding himself with his free shield spell.

AC 28 is not even HAVING a magic item. Give that barbarian the helm from HotDQ and a +3 shield and a ring of protection and he's at 37 and even CR 24 monsters need a 20 to hit him and CR 30 needs 18. Give the wizard +3 plate and shield and a ring +1 he's a 35.

Above 20 isn't awesome. 23 is your generic 2nd level (or whatever level they can afford it) paladin in nonmagic plate and shield with shield of faith up.
You really need to put these in context. Plate mail is the best armor in existence. It is the stuff the richest people in the world wear to protect themselves and is the pinnacle of technology. With that and a shield most people are nearly invincible when facing mundane threats. Most commoners/kobolds/goblins are going to miss 80-85% of the time. You can face down a number of foes in that armor and be fairly certain you'll come out alive.

20 is pretty awesome. Anything above that requires significant resources most people don't have like magic. If the PCs do have it...well, congrats, that means they are SUPER powerful.

The problem is that a lot of players have been playing 3.5e for so long that their idea of what a D&D world should work like has been calibrated by that game. They expect guards to be equipped with +2 weapons because the city has hundreds of them laying around. They expect every enemy they come across to have shield of faith, haste, shield, or any number of other buffs up at any time.

5e creates a fundamentally different fantasy world than 3.5e used to(which is true of 2e, and 4e as well). Each edition the expectations have changed slightly.

I imagine the world of 5e D&D is one in which the use of a spell like Shield of Faith to protect someone is considered truly magical and those who can do so are considered to be very rare and powerful. Magic items are treated with awe and reverence because of how few of them there are out there.

If you play that game, the assumptions described make perfect sense. So far, from my experience with Adventurer's League it seems to be the expectation that most PCs will get about one magic item every 4 levels or so. Or about 5 magic items by the time they are level 20. I would expect the average PC to have either a magic weapon OR armor but not both. I would also expect that by 20th level most PCs should still have +1 items with the rare PC having a +2...with +3 items something that 1 PC might get by the time their are level 20...but likely only once every 2 or 3 full campaigns.
 

transtemporal

Explorer
It doesn't. Even the CR 17 Death Knight is only +11 to attack, so needs a 19+ rendering it free XP. Most monsters in the game need a 20. Rendering monsters unable to present a challenge to the party due to being unable to hit means bounded accuracy is completely busted. There are plenty of games out there with bounded accuracy, this is definitely not one of them.

You keep throwing out this example as though all 20th level characters will have 28 AC... although lol, it seems to have gone up to 30 now. You're just making up numbers now huh?
 

transtemporal

Explorer
AC 28 is a 20 barbarian with nothing but a nonmagic shield and codpiece of modesty buffed with haste and shield of faith.

AC 28 is a fighter 2 wizard 18 with nonmagic plate and shield buffed with haste and shielding himself with his free shield spell.

These are highly situational buffs and if one person has them, who cares since the caster and the cleric in this example can't keep another spell up. And Shield as reliable AC? lol

AC 28 is not even HAVING a magic item. Give that barbarian the helm from HotDQ and a +3 shield and a ring of protection and he's at 37 and even CR 24 monsters need a 20 to hit him and CR 30 needs 18. Give the wizard +3 plate and shield and a ring +1 he's a 35.

Its hilarious that in your "no magic item" example, there are 5 magic items.
 

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