I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

[Iku Rex]

If you cast Haste, you could easily house rule that it doesn't take effect until Time Stop ends.

IMO this wouldn't be a house rule. Haste gives you an extra partial action before or after your regular action. The rounds of "apparent time" granted by the (to the rest of the world) effectively instantaneous spell Time Stop are not regular in any way.

 

[Omegium]

If you cast Haste, you could easily house rule that it doesn't take effect until Time Stop ends.

This is very clear in the rules, you don't have to houserule anything: All spells come in effect at the end of the time stop, including haste.
And if you cast haste before a timestop, you could rule they both give a "time" bonus to your speed, one a bit more extreme than the other, and thus don't stack, but that would be a houserule.

 

[Artoomis]

This is very clear in the rules, you don't have to houserule anything: All spells come in effect at the end of the time stop, including haste.
And if you cast haste before a timestop, you could rule they both give a "time" bonus to your speed, one a bit more extreme than the other, and thus don't stack, but that would be a houserule.

Actually, no need for a house rule. Caliban has explained (a few times, at least) why Haste does not work during the time stop. All within the rules.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

um - the only way Caliban could get away with that is if he somehow managed to get haste and time stop in the same "category" of bonuses - which you can't. I don't agree with the LC "rule" in the least.

Haste awards extra actions over a period of time -

Time stop in effect - awards a bunch of actions AT ONCE.

The only effects that you could rule would not "stack" are Time Stop, Temporal acceleration, and Temporal velocity - the first from the PHB, and the second two from the psionics handbook. Those are truly similar spells awarding the same "apparent time bonus" and therefore would not "stack" per se.

I would really like to see anyone try and argue haste and time stop don't stack if you have haste working prior to casting the time stop.

The haste not "coming into effect" if you cast it during the time stop has NOTHING to do with it stacking. ANY spell you cast while under the effect of time stop would have to wait until the end of the time stop to "take effect" - given the quantum mechaniclal understanding of the weave that is a given as the "default" mechanic in Greyhawk and the FR campaign setting.

Ya cannot change the laws of physics Captn...
ya cannot change the laws of physics Jim...

(bad star trek parody in mind here)

 

[KarinsDad]

I would really like to see anyone try and argue haste and time stop don't stack if you have haste working prior to casting the time stop.

Ok.

I like the interpretation that no spell (or magic) durations work within Time Stop.

We obviously know that no spell that you cast when time stopped works until the Time Stop ends.

To me, it makes just as much sense that Time Stop means that you step out of time. Just like a dimensional spell would allow you to step out of the dimension.

I view it as a loop on the string of time. Instead of following the straight string like we always do, suddenly you are walking on the loop. The number of extra apparent rounds are determined by the size of the loop.

Any spell you had up before you entered the loop does not work since magic duration does not work within the loop. Casting a spell in the loop is ok since magic still works in the loop, merely magic duration is halted.

But, your body still functions within the loop. So, if you are in a smokey area, you still have to breathe and will enhale smoke.

And, you enter the normal string of time where you left it. You have already cast Time Stop which took approximately 3 seconds (i.e. a partial action) to do. You leave the time string and enter a different "dimension" of time where spell durations do not work, and then you reenter exactly where you left so that you can then take your move action where you left off.


To me, this is the interpretation that has the fewest problems. The reason fire and cold still affect you is that you force an interaction with them. Just like you still breathe smoke, you still move through fire. It harms you because the moment you touch and move an object (air, a brick, the gas of fire), the magic of the spell pulls it into the loop with you.

However, there are auras that you cannot pull objects into the time loop. Various fields such as anti-magic, magic circles, and "life force" (potentially) auras around other creatures. The spell is only able to pull you and your familiar into the loop, no other life force nor anything that life force is touching.

But, the fun thing about this interpretation is that your Freedom of Movement and Water Breathing spells have no duration within the Time Stop and if you are underwater, you could be in trouble.

Or even worse, your Fly spell fails and gravity still works in the loop.

 

[Caliban]

um - the only way Caliban could get away with that is if he somehow managed to get haste and time stop in the same "category" of bonuses - which you can't. I don't agree with the LC "rule" in the least.

That's fine, if you don't play LC. Without that rule, time stop made the game a joke. Whichever wizard get's initiative wins, period. Lot's of fun for everyone else. The LC ruling was made specifically as a balance issue because of frequent use of the spell by PC's and NPC's at high levels.

Entirely aside from the LC ruling, I don't believe haste will provide multiple extra actions on the round you cast time stop. It's not so much that they don't stack, it's that the spells give two different (although similar) benefits and affect the PC in different ways.

Haste awards extra actions over a period of time -

Time stop in effect - awards a bunch of actions AT ONCE.

Exactly. You get a bunch of "apparent" rounds in one round. Haste gives you one extra partial action for each actual round.

Both of them work, and they do "stack". But they stack by adding together the extra actions granted by each spell for that round, not by haste doubling the extra actions from time stop. In the round you cast time stop you get the one extra action that haste grants that round plus the 1d4+1 "apparent" rounds of action that time stop grants.

I view it a little differently than KD does. The way I read it, only you are sped up by the time stop. Any spells you have cast before you cast time stop are not affected by the time stop, so only one round of their duration is passing.

Ex: Only one round of the haste duration is passing while you are in the "apparent' time stop rounds. Since you only get one extra action per round, you only get one extra partial action from the haste, but you would get the +4 AC for all your apparent rounds (not that you need it).

Things like fly and water breathing are trickier. If you had fly up, it would still grant you a 90 fly speed for each of the apparent rounds in time stop, because you get the fly speed for each round of it's duration, and only one round of your fly duration is passing (you are just doing a lot more in that one round).

This is a little different than the way I thought it would work the last time this came up. I now believe it should work this way to remain consistent with haste-type effects. Being hasted doesn't shorten the duration of your spells, and it will allow you to use the 90 speed from fly more than once in a round.

 

[KarinsDad]

I view it a little differently than KD does. The way I read it, only you are sped up by the time stop. Any spells you have cast before you cast time stop are not affected by the time stop, so only one round of their duration is passing.

Why does one round pass for other spells though?

I’m playing a 20th level Wizard. On round one, I cast Acid Fog on some enemies. It lasts 20 rounds.

On Round two, I move 30 feet and cast Time Stop.

Just before my turn on Round 21, the Acid Fog ends, just like always. It does not matter that I cast Time Stop.

Different example:

I’m playing a 20th level Wizard. On round one, I cast Displacement on myself. It lasts 20 rounds.

On Round two, I move 30 feet and cast Time Stop.

Just before my turn on Round 21, the Displacement ends, just like always. It does not matter that I cast Time Stop.

Correct?

Since I moved and cast Time Stop, there was no round “inside the Time Stop rounds” for which the Displacement existed.

Either its duration works inside Time Stop in which case you get 1D4+1 rounds of the Displacement used up, or its duration does not work inside Time Stop.

Nothing indicates that you get one rounds worth of Displacement within the Time Stop and hence, the Displacement ends just before my turn on Round 20.

Ex: Only one round of the haste duration is passing while you are in the "apparent' time stop rounds. Since you only get one extra action per round, you only get one extra partial action from the haste, but you would get the +4 AC for all your apparent rounds (not that you need it).

Zero rounds are passing while you are in the “apparent” time stop.

Why?

Because as per my example above, you have already moved and cast a spell this round. You have no round left for a spell duration to expire. If the spell’s duration expires within the Time Stop, 1D4+1 rounds of it expire, not 1.

Things like fly and water breathing are trickier. If you had fly up, it would still grant you a 90 fly speed for each of the apparent rounds in time stop, because you get the fly speed for each round of it's duration, and only one round of your fly duration is passing (you are just doing a lot more in that one round).

Ah, but if you get 5 rounds of Fly (if you roll a 4 on the D4), then you suck up 5 rounds of Fly’s duration. Just like you would suck up 5 rounds of Displacement.

This is ok, but it begs the question: Why do spell that you cast within Time Stop not start their duration until you leave, but spells they you cast before Time Stop have their duration extend into it?

This does not seem to make much sense. Yes, you can say that it is magic, so it works however the designer wrote it (chuckle). But, I prefer consistency.

This is a little different than the way I thought it would work the last time this came up. I now believe it should work this way to remain consistent with haste-type effects. Being hasted doesn't shorten the duration of your spells, and it will allow you to use the 90 speed from fly more than once in a round.

You are damned if you do, damned if you do not.

Either all spells work inside of the Time Stop, or none do.

Personally, I think none do.

Then, I do not have the problem with the Fly spell giving me 5 rounds of 90’ movement , but Haste not giving me 5 additional partial actions.

I prefer consistency over differing rulings based on some on the fly guesswork as to which spells do and which do not work within it.

 

[Caliban]

Why does one round pass for other spells though?

I'm not saying that one round of a spells duration passes during the time stop. I'm saying that any continous effects you gain from spells cast previous to the time stop do persist during the time stop, but because the spell itself isn't affected by time stop, none of it's duration is being used during your extra time stop rounds.

Look at it this way: If you cast fly and then haste on yourself and you are hasted for 6 rounds, is the duration of the fly spell reduced by 3 rounds because of the extra actions granted by haste? You are moving and acting faster after all. Considering that being hasted has no effect on the actual duration of any other spells you cast, I think the same logic would apply to time stop.

Haste only gives you one extra partial action for each normal round, so no matter how many times you get to act within that round, the extra partial action will only occur once. The 90 fly speed from the fly spell is granted for the entire round, so if you get extra actions within that round, you can take advantage of it on each of those actions.

Similarly, water breathing would not stop working during time stop (because the spell lets you breath water for the entire round, not just part of it), but resist elements would only stop a total of 12 points of elemental damage in one round, even if were damaged multiple times during your "apparent" time stop rounds.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

We obviously know that no spell that you cast when time stopped works until the Time Stop ends.
- agreed KD

To me, it makes just as much sense that Time Stop means that you step out of time. Just like a dimensional spell would allow you to step out of the dimension.
- KD into what dimension?
How can you see from one dimension into another?

also - why are you and your magic items accelerated - and not the spells upon you?

---------

Exactly. You get a bunch of "apparent" rounds in one round. Haste gives you one extra partial action for a round.
- Caliban ... exactly NOT the case.

Time stops ACTUAL duration is "instantaneous" if you would. Not 1d4+1 rounds. While it would SEEM time has stopped for all others, what is actually going on is that your timeflow just got a whole lot faster. Haste - makes YOU quicker and doesn't change the flow of time around you.

My LC solution would be to somehow have a contingency of sorts placed upon myself such that when a time stop spell was cast within 500 feet of Me - a time stop spell would come into effect upon Me. I am thinking this could be done by some type of Greater/Chain Contingency that I would have to write.

This would force an "arena type" battle between the two wizards - and he has already "acted". So I go next - and dispel his time stop first - eliminating Him from the arena - and then set up my nasty evocation spells to kill the enemy wizard for his uncreative nature.

Creating a new "bonus category" of actions is a bit tricky - which is what LC has gone with, as a particular stratagem was excessively used.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's fine, if you don't play LC. Without that rule, time stop made the game a joke. Whichever wizard get's initiative wins, period. Lot's of fun for everyone else. The LC ruling was made specifically as a balance issue because of frequent use of the spell by PC's and NPC's at high levels.

I think the balance issue not withstanding, I do not like the LC rulings either.

My high level Cleric with the Trickery domain casts Time Stop.

If he casts Cure Critical Wounds on a human, it works when the Time Stop is over.

If he casts Cure Critical Wounds on an undead, it does not work.

I dislike inconsistencies like these.


I prefer a solution which takes into account that the PCs and NPCs are high level.

For example, if they made the Counterspell, AoO, and Cast Defensively rules better, this would be less of a problem.

Counterspell: You can cast Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, the counter of a spell (Slow vs. Slow) or the opposite of a spell (Haste vs. Slow) as a free action once per round outside of your turn. To do this, you must use up your (typically) one free AoO per round (i.e. if you have already used it, you cannot do this). Plus, you use up a partial action for the next round, leaving you with only a move equivalent and free actions in the following round. You can cast one of these countering spells at any time but, they will only counter a spell, they cannot be cast normally and have a normal effect. In other words, you cannot Slow an opponent or Dispel the spells already up on him with counterspelling.

AoO: You can throw a weapon once per round outside of your turn. To do this, you must use up your (typically) one free AoO per round. You cannot fire a bow, but you can throw it.

Cast Defensively: If you miss your roll, opponents get normal AoOs against you but you do not necessarily lose the spell. If you make your roll, your total result sets a Reflex DC for opponents to still get AoOs against you.

So, almost anyone could attempt to do some damage and force a Concentration roll. Granted, high level spell casters have large modifiers to their Concentration rolls, but high level characters also tend to have decent damage.

The advantages of this type of solution is that more characters would use throwing weapons instead of projectile weapons (which totally dominate), more characters would want to boost their Reflex saves, counterspelling will have some real teeth to it, and more characters who are not full blown spell casters would at least attempt to have a few ranks in Spellcraft.

Some people may think that this might give spell casters too much of an advantage, but I think having worthless counterspell rules in the first place is the real problem being addressed here.

YMMV, but I prefer good clean consistent rules as opposed to hacks for individual spells.