I heard that there is a "fix" to Time Stop...

[Caliban]

Exactly. You get a bunch of "apparent" rounds in one round. Haste gives you one extra partial action for a round.
- Caliban ... exactly NOT the case.

No, that is exactly the case. Haste gives you one extra partial action in a round. Time stop gives you 1d4+1 extra actions within the round. They will stack: you get 1d4+1 extra actions + 1 extra partial action. That is strictly by the rules.

Having haste grant an extra partial action for each of the apparent time stop rounds would be multiplying them, not stacking them.

Time stops ACTUAL duration is "instantaneous" if you would.

I agree with this.

While it would SEEM time has stopped for all others, what is actually going on is that your timeflow just got a whole lot faster. Haste - makes YOU quicker and doesn't change the flow of time around you.

Yes, but it only makes a you a little bit quicker than the time stop. Just fast enough to squeeze out one extra partial action, and no faster.

My LC solution would be to somehow have a contingency of sorts placed upon myself such that when a time stop spell was cast within 500 feet of Me - a time stop spell would come into effect upon Me. I am thinking this could be done by some type of Greater/Chain Contingency that I would have to write.

Not a valid solution in LC. Most characters can't cast spells, and most spellcasters in LC can't create new spells. They can only use PHB spells and spells out of the builder book.

This would force an "arena type" battle between the two wizards - and he has already "acted". So I go next - and dispel his time stop first - eliminating Him from the arena - and then set up my nasty evocation spells to kill the enemy wizard for his uncreative nature.

Sorry, doesn't work that way. And even if it did, it's a rather poor solution from a game balance stand point.

What if you aren't a 17th level wizard or 18th level sorcerer? What if you are a group of 14th-16th level characters facing an 18th level wizard?

Should only arcane casters who have researched this currently non-existant spell contingency spell of yours be allowed to participate in combat at high levels?

Creating a new "bonus category" of actions is a bit tricky - which is what LC has gone with, as a particular stratagem was excessively used.

It wasn't just "excessively used", it was abused and abused repeatedly. By your interpretation timestop is a broken spell, because it's a spell that you have to plan for. The entire game should not revolve around the PC's ability to either use or counteract one specific spell. It's Dungeons and Dragons, not "Time Stops and Counterspells."

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Hmm - now that I think about it... if I could use My "greater contingency" and set up a time stop in the counterspell mode - it would work really nicely even with the existing counterspell rules.

 

[Caliban]

I think the balance issue not withstanding, I do not like the LC rulings either.

My high level Cleric with the Trickery domain casts Time Stop.

If he casts Cure Critical Wounds on a human, it works when the Time Stop is over.

If he casts Cure Critical Wounds on an undead, it does not work.

I dislike inconsistencies like these.

Oh, I agree. Unfortunately they didn't consult me before making the ruling.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't be able to target other creatures with any spell you cast during time stop, whether it's beneficial or harmful, and I don't think you should be able to cast any instantaneous spells during time stop (or rather, you can cast them, but other creatures will be immune to them because it's happening within the time stop). I think this was the original intent, but it wasn't worded properly.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not saying that one round of a spells duration passes during the time stop. I'm saying that any continous effects you gain from spells cast previous to the time stop do persist during the time stop, but because the spell itself isn't affected by time stop, none of it's duration is being used during your extra time stop rounds.

The problem with this interpretation is that you gain the advantages of some spells within the Time Stop (e.g. Fly), but you do not gain the advantages of others (e.g. partial action of Haste).

Do you get the 1.5x jumping advantage of Haste?

Look at it this way: If you cast fly and then haste on yourself and you are hasted for 6 rounds, is the duration of the fly spell reduced by 3 rounds because of the extra actions granted by haste? You are moving and acting faster after all. Considering that being hasted has no effect on the actual duration of any other spells you cast, I think the same logic would apply to time stop.

And that’s fine. In my “no durations exist within Time Stop” interpretation, that is what happens.

Haste only gives you one extra partial action for each normal round, so no matter how many times you get to act within that round, the extra partial action will only occur once. The 90 fly speed from the fly spell is granted for the entire round, so if you get extra actions within that round, you can take advantage of it on each of those actions.

“normal round”? “extra actions”?

What’s a normal round? What extra actions are you talking about? Are you saying that you get 1D4+1 extra sets of “rounds” that can be used as rounds for the purposes of standard and full round actions, but that they cannot be used as “rounds” for the purpose of the extra partial action of Haste? If so, why? Why is this a consistent interpretation of the rules?

Why do you get the full benefits of Fly, but not the full benefits of Haste? Why do you get a free 5 rounds of Flying duration, but not the free 5 partial rounds of Haste?

The problem is that your solution is inconsistent. Which spells get which effects?

You have a Regenerate Serious Wounds spell on you before you cast Time Stop. You roll a 4 on the D4, so you heal up 15 more points than the Regenerate Serious Wounds spell is able to normally handle?

If you get an extra potential 900 feet of movement from the Fly spell (double move) that it normally does not give you, you also get the extra 15 points from the Regenerate Serious Wounds spell.

Similarly, water breathing would not stop working during time stop (because the spell lets you breath water for the entire round, not just part of it), but resist elements would only stop a total of 12 points of elemental damage in one round, even if were damaged multiple times during your "apparent" time stop rounds.

If you had fly up, it would still grant you a 90 fly speed for each of the apparent rounds in time stop

So, which is it? Extra rounds or extra actions?

The problem with this is that you have already used your move action with the Fly spell before casting Time Stop. Why would you get another 90 feet of movement within each “apparent round” within the Time Stop “loop”?

Well, you could only get them if it were extra actions (similar to the extra partial action from Haste) granted by Time Stop.

But, Time Stop does not grant extra actions. It grants extra rounds of which actions are a subset.

Hence, either:

1) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each lose duration, OR

2) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each do not lose duration, OR

3) All spells cast BY the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each lose duration, OR

4) All spells cast BY the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each do not lose duration, OR

5) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get NONE of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they do not lose duration, OR

6) SOME spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get SOME of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and those that do, do not lose duration.

7) SOME spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get SOME of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and those that do, do lose duration.

I prefer interpretation #5. You seem to prefer interpretation #6 (or is it #7? I cannot really tell).

I doubt anyone prefers interpretations #3 or #4.

The thing I do not like about #1 or #2 is that spells cast before Time Stop work, but ones cast during Time Stop do not. This seems inconsistent. My Resist Fire from before Time Stop works inside it, but my one cast in it does not. Hmmmm.

The thing I do not like about #6 or #7 is that you have to make a ruling for every spell that comes along. This seems inconsistent as well.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Hmmm - specific to LC
Countermeasures VS The good ol Time Stop Trick

Wizard/Sor answers

quickened damage dealing spell to force concentration check
quickened wall of force after stuff hit the fan
quickened dimension door - to evade
quickened blink - to avoid some of the damage - maybe all of it.
quickened dispel magic
quickened feeblemind (particularly devastating)
quickened hold person

Clerics
quickened Spell Immunity - naming the incoming spells
quickened spell resistance -
quickened silence = 100% no way today jose

Bards -
quickened silence - see clerics
quickened hold person

Druids - answers similar to clerics or Sor/Wiz

Rangers and Paladins
Not ENTIRELY without magic, but they would have to be careful about the few selected spells - and move to engage quickly.

Rogues -
Spend a Couple levels dumping points into Use Magic Device - and use some lower level scrolls, or something like a ring of blinking and/or boots of haste. with evasion and possibly improved evasion ability in place - threat to close.

Monks -
SR outright, awesome saves, IMPROVED evasion, and an incredible base move - close and pummel.

Fighters and barbarians...
problematic.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

1) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each lose duration,

The thing I do not like about #1 or #2 is that spells cast before Time Stop work, but ones cast during Time Stop do not. This seems inconsistent. My Resist Fire from before Time Stop works inside it, but my one cast in it does not. Hmmmm.

- KD, 1 Is my interprtation -

If you have the FR "weave" thing going on - then you can cast the spell just fine, but it goes out to the WEAVE - and the weave is still at "normal" speed - frozen with respect to you until you slow down.
Ironically, your character can actually watch the spell start to take effect as he casts another one. It just can't complete this until He slows down enough to let it "catch up"

 

[KarinsDad]

Oh, I agree. Unfortunately they didn't consult me before making the ruling.

Personally, I think that you shouldn't be able to target other creatures with any spell you cast during time stop, whether it's beneficial or harmful, and I don't think you should be able to cast any instantaneous spells during time stop (or rather, you can cast them, but other creatures will be immune to them because it's happening within the time stop). I think this was the original intent, but it wasn't worded properly.

I think the "no instantaneous spells" rule would have been better than the "no damage spells" rule. But, it is still not that great. No Teleports away for that Wizard unless you put in a caveat that instantaneous spells can affect the Wizard.

I should be able to auto-hit with my Melf’s Acid Arrow and if it is still up when the Time Stop expires, it starts doing damage.

I think spell durations should exist within Time Stop. However, only spells which the caster has on him coming in, or ones which he casts while in there should work. Other spells like the Acid Fog I mentioned earlier, should not be affected.

Different example:

Wizard casts Time Stop. Fighter AoOs him just as he is casting and takes him to zero hit points. But, he still gets the spell off.

He uses his first round to slowly pull out a potion of Cure Serious Wounds in Time Stop.

On round two, he drinks it. What happens?

Does he get healed immediately, allowing him to cast some spells on round three (if he gets a round three)?

Or like casting spells, does the instantaneous aspect of healing wait?

If it waits, can the Wizard cast a spell on round three? If so, does he take a point of immediate damage for a stressful action, or does that too wait until normal time commences? Probably not.


In the non-modified LC scenario, we have the Cure vs. Human or Undead inconsistency. And of course, that Transmute Rock to Mud spell under the Fighter’s feet or Reverse Gravity on him or Evard’s Black Tentacles and a dome of Wall of Force could be annoying. LC’s solution does not consider these, they only consider damage, How pedestrian! My 24 Int high level Wizards are a lot more creative.

In the Modified LC scenario that you suggest, this Wizard might be in a lot of trouble. The potion would never affect him. Nor could he Teleport to his local Temple unless you allowed instantaneous effects to affect the Wizard within the Time Stop, but not affect others. If you allow that, then you have to decide if the effects of instantaneous spells occur immediately, or when the Time Stop expires. If immediately, then would an area dispel Greater Dispel Magic by the Wizard dispel both the Time Stop and other spells in the area, or just the Time Stop? The reason I ask is that GDM is a burst spell which spreads out from a centralized point and it automatically dispels the Time Stop. Hence, it would seem that it would have “time” since the Time Stop is the first spell dispelled to dispel other spells in the area (in other words, other creatures could be affected since the Wizard is no longer Time Stopped).

Hmmm. Seems like another ruling is necessary. It’s not clear cut.

In the Spell Durations on the Wizard and any he casts scenario that I just mentioned above, there are no inconsistencies if you consider that spells cast during Time Stop do not affect anyone except the Wizard within Time Stop. Of course, this disagrees with the spell like the LC and Modified LC solutions and it requires a ruling for the GDM question, but shrug.

In my “no durations exist” solution, there are also no inconsistencies. Instantaneous spells (and potions) fire off when the Time Stop expires, just like all spells. And, it does not involve a modification of the spell and the answer to GDM is crystal clear.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmmm - specific to LC
Countermeasures VS The good ol Time Stop Trick

Wizard/Sor answers

quickened damage dealing spell to force concentration check

Sorry, quickened does not work.

When the caster comes out of Time Stop, it is still his turn. He still gets free actions and possibly even a move equivalent. Opposing casters cannot cast quickened spells during that time without a house rule.

 

[Caliban]

The problem with this interpretation is that you gain the advantages of some spells within the Time Stop (e.g. Fly), but you do not gain the advantages of others (e.g. partial action of Haste).

Do you get the 1.5x jumping advantage of Haste?
]

I don't see that as a problem. It simply depends on where the advantage of the spell is something that applies for the full duration of the round you cast time stop or something that only applies a limited number of times during the round you cast time stop.

And yes, you would still get the 1.5x jumping advantage from haste because that is an effect you gain for the entire round.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Caliban

Look at it this way: If you cast fly and then haste on yourself and you are hasted for 6 rounds, is the duration of the fly spell reduced by 3 rounds because of the extra actions granted by haste? You are moving and acting faster after all. Considering that being hasted has no effect on the actual duration of any other spells you cast, I think the same logic would apply to time stop.

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And that’s fine. In my “no durations exist within Time Stop” interpretation, that is what happens.

You haven't responded to my point about haste. If haste doesn't prevent you from getting extra uses of other spells without reducing their duration, why should time stop?

“normal round”? “extra actions”?

Did I stutter?

What’s a normal round? What extra actions are you talking about?

A normal round is what happens when you aren't affected by haste or time stop effects. Anything that lets you act more than your normal Standard/Full Action is giving you extra actions. Haste grants one extra Partial Action per normal round, time stop grants 1d4+1 extra "apparent" Standard/Full Actions during your normal round.

Are you saying that you get 1D4+1 extra sets of “rounds” that can be used as rounds for the purposes of standard and full round actions, but that they cannot be used as “rounds” for the purpose of the extra partial action of Haste? If so, why? Why is this a consistent interpretation of the rules?

It's very consistant, and I've explained it several times already. If we just start repeating ourselves, there is little point in continuing the discussion.

Why do you get the full benefits of Fly, but not the full benefits of Haste? Why do you get a free 5 rounds of Flying duration, but not the free 5 partial rounds of Haste?

I've already explained this, I'd rather not explain it all over again. Please read my previous posts.

The problem is that your solution is inconsistent. Which spells get which effects?

I do not believe my interpretation is inconsistent.

You have a Regenerate Serious Wounds spell on you before you cast Time Stop. You roll a 4 on the D4, so you heal up 15 more points than the Regenerate Serious Wounds spell is able to normally handle?

In this particular case I'm not sure. The regenerate spell grant you the fast healing ability, which states that you heal a certain number of points at the beginning of your turn.

Do each of the apparent rounds from time stop count as the beginning of your turn, or only the beginning of the round, before you cast the [/i]stop spell[/i]?

In other words, if you naturally had the fast healing ability (not from a spell), would you heal up faster during the time stop? If the answer is yes, then the regenerate spell would heal you up extra as well, without using up any extra duration.

For what it's worth, I think you would heal on each of the extra time stop rounds.

If you get an extra potential 900 feet of movement from the Fly spell (double move) that it normally does not give you, you also get the extra 15 points from the Regenerate Serious Wounds spell.

Yes, 9th level spells can be nice that way.

So, which is it? Extra rounds or extra actions?

Yes.

The problem with this is that you have already used your move action with the Fly spell before casting Time Stop. Why would you get another 90 feet of movement within each “apparent round” within the Time Stop “loop”?

Why would you get an extra 90 feet of movement from the extra haste partial action?

Well, you could only get them if it were extra actions (similar to the extra partial action from Haste) granted by Time Stop.

But, Time Stop does not grant extra actions. It grants extra rounds of which actions are a subset.

I believe that an "apparent round" is a Standard or Full Action within the context of the time stop spell.

Hence, either:

1) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each lose duration, OR

Nope.

2) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each do not lose duration, OR

Nope.

3) All spells cast BY the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each lose duration, OR

Nope.

4) All spells cast BY the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get ALL of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they each do not lose duration, OR

Nope.

5) All spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get NONE of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and they do not lose duration, OR

Nope.

6) SOME spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get SOME of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and those that do, do not lose duration.

Nope.

7) SOME spells cast ON the caster of Time Stop before the Time Stop get SOME of their benefits for each round within Time Stop and those that do, do lose duration.

Nope.

I prefer interpretation #5. You seem to prefer interpretation #6 (or is it #7? I cannot really tell).

None of the above.

I doubt anyone prefers interpretations #3 or #4.

The thing I do not like about #1 or #2 is that spells cast before Time Stop work, but ones cast during Time Stop do not. This seems inconsistent. My Resist Fire from before Time Stop works inside it, but my one cast in it does not. Hmmmm.

That's simple. The one you cast before the time stop placed an effect on you. That effect doesn't disappear when you cast time stop.

The one you cast during time stop doesn't take effect until your time stop ends.

The tricky part is how the time stop interacts with the effects in place before you cast the time stop.

The thing I do not like about #6 or #7 is that you have to make a ruling for every spell that comes along. This seems inconsistent as well.

No, you just have to make a consistent ruling on how time stop interacts with different types of effects. Then you see which type of effect the spell generates and follow the ruling.

One more try:

If the effect is a continous effect (the bonus or ability applies during the entire round), then it applies during every one of the "apparent" time stop rounds, because all of the time stop rounds are happening inside your normal round.

If the effect is something that applies a limited number of times during the round, then you cannot exceed that limit during the time stop rounds.

Fly grants you a 90 speed for the entire round. You can use that 90 speed during each of the time stop rounds.

Haste grants you +4 AC and x1.5 jumping distance for the entire round. You can use that +4 AC and x1.5 jumping distance during each of the time stop rounds.

Regenerate Critical Wounds grants you fast healing for the entire round. You can use that fast healing for each of the time stop rounds. (Although I suppose you could interpret it as being limited to healing 4 points per "normal" round" instead of granting you the ability to heal for 4 points a round. However, I think it would heal you up on each of the "apparent" rounds as well.)

Haste grants an extra partial action once per round, before or after your action. Since it's only once per round, you can't use it more often than that, even with the extra time stop rounds.

Resist Elements blocks 12 points of damage per round. Since it's limited to 12 per round, you can't exceed that limit with the extra time stop rounds (because they are happening inside 1 round of the resist element spell's duration).

 

[Caliban]

Hmmm - specific to LC
Countermeasures VS The good ol Time Stop Trick

Wizard/Sor answers

quickened damage dealing spell to force concentration check
quickened wall of force after stuff hit the fan
quickened dimension door - to evade
quickened blink - to avoid some of the damage - maybe all of it.
quickened dispel magic
quickened feeblemind (particularly devastating)
quickened hold person

Sorry, you lost initiative to the wizard. Your dead before you can cast any of those spells, quickened or not. (The Quicken spell feat does not let you cast spells on someone elses turn.)

If you won initiative, you would be casting time stop and the enemy wizard would be dead.

Clerics
quickened Spell Immunity - naming the incoming spells
quickened spell resistance -
quickened silence = 100% no way today jose

Sorry, you lost initiative so your dead as well.

And even if you win initiative, you have to incapaciate the wizard before he has a chance to cast time stop or your dead anyway.

Bards -
quickened silence - see clerics
quickened hold person

No pulse here either.

Druids - answers similar to clerics or Sor/Wiz

See above.

Rangers and Paladins
Not ENTIRELY without magic, but they would have to be careful about the few selected spells - and move to engage quickly.

See above.

Rogues -
Spend a Couple levels dumping points into Use Magic Device - and use some lower level scrolls, or something like a ring of blinking and/or boots of haste. with evasion and possibly improved evasion ability in place - threat to close.

You lost initiave, you don't have time for any of that. Even if you had blink up, you are going to be facing several spells. And if they have any clue that you are rogue, you won't be facing any Reflex save spells. Your getting a nice barrage of disintigrates and a wail of the banshee or three.

Monks -
SR outright, awesome saves, IMPROVED evasion, and an incredible base move - close and pummel.

You were put in a force cage during the time stop and hit with dimensional anchor, and the enemy wizard is nowhere to be seen when the time stop ends (due to improved Invisibility and/or telepor/dimension door). If the dimensional anchor didn't work and you abundant step out of the force cage, the enemy wizard time stops again and puts you in another one. Then he leaves a stinking cloud and [/i]acid fog[/i] inside and calls it a day.

And if this is a Forgotten Realms min/maxed Archmage wizard (and they do show up in the highest level modules), you SR won't help.

You still have the best chance of surviving, overall.

Fighters and barbarians...
problematic.

Against pure damage, they have the best chance of surviving. Against minde control spells they are just about defenseless, unless they have specific magic items.