D&D 5E I'd like to know the thinking behind this....

Nivenus

First Post
The reason tieflings were included and aasimar weren't is very simple: aasimar weren't in the 4e Player's Handbook.

With the exception of warlords and 4e eladrin (who were high elves with extra stuff anyway), the designers of 5e kept very close to their stated mandate of including everything that was in the first PHB for each edition in the 5e PHB. Tieflings were in the 4e PHB so they made it into 5e's. Aasimar weren't so they didn't.

Which isn't to say I wouldn't like to see 5e aasimar (and not devas, which I don't mind but are even more different than 4e tieflings). But that's why, since you asked.
 

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Remathilis

Legend
That's not what I was suggesting. By "classic archetype," I'm referring to the archetypes of centuries of fantasy fiction, myth, legend, and faerie stories, not the relatively recent phenomenon of players handbooks. :p

Even the half-orc has precedent in Tolkien, if only by implication (IIRC is was a random comment by Sam about some of Sharkey's men having "something orcish" to them). Fauns and centaurs would be better choices for PHB races than tieflings and dragonborn. The barbarian is a classic fantasy archetype, thanks to Howard and Lieber.

-The Gneech :cool:

Jeez, you'd almost think there are no fiend-sired heroes.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I think they put tieflings in 4e because it was a fairly popular race in 3e (and in Planescape (Torment or p&p); who does not love Annah?)

They appear as interesting figures in some 3e FR novels. They even had representatives in the Baldur's Gate games.

Aasimar never garnered such popularity.

I think the fact that tieflings had more cachet than aasimar certainly plays into why they were in 4e (which was pretty explicitly interested in milking new brand identity from old phrases), but regardless of the merits or flaws in that chain of thought, they remain in 5e, I think, largely because 5e doesn't reject 4e, it evolves from it. You liked your tiefling warlock in 4e? Okay, the same archetype exists in 5e (even if it is quite a different mechanical representation).

Why? Well, conflicts are interesting. Somebody fighting their evil upbringing and heritage to do basically good stuff is a lot more interesting than a being of goodness doing good stuff. (See Driz'zt.)

It could be interesting to see a story about an aasimar battling his nature to do evil would do it. But stories with evil main protagonists tend to be boring.

Eh. Aasimar can be interesting. They make fascinating villains in Planescape (influential, respected, and totally assured that their own view is completely and utterly right because they've never really been told anything different). They also make interesting characters in that setting -- wrestling with society's expectations of you and your own limits, or asking what is "Good" about you just because you are born with eyes of liquid gold.

I mean, lets not confuse popularity with quality, or we should all just be playing The Drizzt Do'Urden Game of Wangst And Weird Sexual Stuff because that is clearly the Best.

But tieflings were certainly more popular than aasimar in the run up to 4e, and while I can't speak to what "everyone" liked about them, what I liked about them was their status as outcasts, heroes who fought against (or played within) society's negative expectation of them, exploring concepts like racism, classism, physical and mental handicaps, and otherization. Which isn't exactly comfortably compatible with 4e's vision of them as an internally consistent people with one true origin.

And what I like about aasimar is also that toying with otherization but from the other side -- having high expectations that you can't possibly meet, being put on a pedestal for what you are, being used like a trophy in someone else's mind games. Not being any different from other people but having people constantly put stuff on your plate -- or try to take you down -- because they think you are trying to be or somehow are "better" than them. That can be as alienating as people thinking you're a vile and untouchable unfortunate.

The devas in 4e don't capture that vibe, either. Like the tieflings, they have their own story.

That's ultimately why I went with developing a separate Planetouched race. Aasimar, tiefling, genasi...the themes I want to explore with these characters are similar, just slightly different reflections of it.

Ultimately, though, the goal of the 5e PHB was not "present am equal distribution of iconic Good Guys and iconic Shady Characters for use as PC's." It was probably first and foremost, "If it's in a previous PHB, we should put some reflection of it in the 5e PHB." I wouldn't be surprised if at one point they were like, "Death Priests OR Necromancers, guys, we can have one or the other, but they overlap a lot, and both also make good villains, so one of them is going into the DMG."

Death Priest loses in that comparison because it's a little less flexible -- previous Death Priests in D&D PHB's past leaned toward a "must be evil" requirement in a way that necromancer wizards did not.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
The planescape campaign setting introduced the following PC races:

Bariaur (?)
Githzerai
Tiefling

Tieflings are "part human and part something else", they are generally planetouched race that can be used for the offspring of certain devils and demons--who might have offspring, one way or another--but could also be part anything, really.

While not as archetypal as say "elves", those with dark bloodlines is something from fantasy and legend. Merlin (edit, as linked above) could be a tiefling. Of course, you could argue that the 5E one is too narrow in its approach, thats something else.

"Aasimar" do not appear until a couple of years latter in the planeswalker handbook. They seem more niche, at least if they are descended from angels, as in various traditions, that may not be possible. However, there are two related precedents, the Nephilim (look it up if you need to, but please keep in mind our rules on posting here) and the many descendants of the (pretty good) gods in greek and other mythology. These aren't really Aasimir though. They might be mighty and great heroes...but that could be true for lots of adventurers. We are all Aasimir!
 

Remathilis

Legend
"Aasimar" do not appear until a couple of years latter in the planeswalker handbook.

Actually, Planescape Monstrous Compendium 2. PCs stats were printed right in the monster write-up (though they lacked the variable Str or Cha; Str only). Genasi were first introduced in the Planeswalker's Handbook.

Still, Tieflings (and many of their planetouched ilk, like aasimars and genasi) have been core for a while. Aasimar showed up in Warriors of Heaven (which was not a PS book, but generic), both aasimar and tiefling made it into the 3e Monster Manual (with PC stats) and then again in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and then generically in Races of Destiny AND the Planar Handbook. Genasi likewise made it into Monsters of Faerun and then again into FRCS. (And they all made one more appearance in Races of Faerun). Then in 4e, Tiefling got promoted to PHB 1, Genasi to Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, and deva (the aasimar replacement) in PHB2.

I'd say they've been core for a dang long time. To say they belong in a Planescape book and not in the Realms (much less generic D&D) is ignoring 15 years of D&D history.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Still, Tieflings (and many of their planetouched ilk, like aasimars and genasi) have been core for a while.

Sure. Kobolds, orcs, goblins, etc got PC stats in 88 with Orcs of Thar and then a "core" treatment in the Complete Humanoids Handbook in 93. They where playable in 3E and 4E as well. Drow and Deep Gnomes go all the way back to Unearthed Arcana in 85.

I still don't really want to see all of them in the PHB. (But I am OK with tieflings, some players really like the damned things.)
 

Henrix

Explorer
I mean, lets not confuse popularity with quality, or we should all just be playing The Drizzt Do'Urden Game of Wangst And Weird Sexual Stuff because that is clearly the Best.

Please, I did not say the best, but it is more popular ;)

what I liked about them was their status as outcasts, heroes who fought against (or played within) society's negative expectation of them, exploring concepts like racism, classism, physical and mental handicaps, and otherization. Which isn't exactly comfortably compatible with 4e's vision of them as an internally consistent people with one true origin.
You and me both. 4e tieflings never felt like tieflings to me.
The random traits table in Planescape reflects much how I like tieflings. Each a unique being with no home. Many mad, many weird or just plain odd.

Nothing wrong with aasimar, but harder to use, if gratifying when it succeeds.
 


The_Gneech

Explorer
Jeez, you'd almost think there are no fiend-sired heroes.

Okay, of those, I've heard of "Merlin," and excepting Merlin were all created long after Dungeons & Dragons was. How exactly does that make an archetype? :p

Points for including Merlin tho, I'll concede that one.

In any case, it's all an argument of taste, which can't really be resolved, merely accepted or rejected.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

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