If a kaiju really emerged

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even keeping it basic, a single foot or knee joint is still going to have to support several times the total mass of the creature so that it doesn't collapse when running or jumping.

And as for the eyes...remember, just like the rest of the creature, they seem impervious to damage from hypervelocity shrapnel and explosions, terminal velocity falls into buildings with tons of force behind them, etc.

That's all beyond the kind of force conventional weapons deliver.

Consider some RW terrorist attacks: the 9/11 planes were completely destroyed on impact and it took a long time to fell the towers. According to some estimates I have seen, each plane had the potential explosive force of up to 600 tons of TNT. McVeigh's bomb was equivalent to about 1000 tons of TNT. By way of comparison, a kaiju can do a face-plant into a skyscraper, bringing it down immediately and dust itself off as if it were the first punch in a bar brawl.

Now you're going too far; I think. Pacific Rim established already that conventional weapons don't work against Kaiju. If we take that already into the baseline, then we know already that conventional weapons don't work, we just made this part of the definition of a Kaiju. There is not much fun to be had, unless you want to talk only about what we would build to get the effect of Jaegers, since Jaegers are probably bullsh*t.

No, I would start with the basic premise that Kajuns of the existed size exists, try to extrapolate from there how tough they logically would need to be as a minimum, and then figure out what options we would have based on the resulting toughness.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Now you're going too far; I think.

How so?

No, I would start with the basic premise that Kajuns of the existed size exists, try to extrapolate from there how tough they logically would need to be as a minimum, and then figure out what options we would have based on the resulting toughness.

I think I just did: beyond the forces involved in movement, kaiju flesh has to be strong enough to withstand forces of at least 1kt to do the kind of destruction seen on screen without injuring themselves.

The MOAB- with one of the biggest conventional warheads out there- has an explosive yield of 11 tons. The B611-11 is a bunker buster bomb with a nuclear warhead. It has an explosive capacity between one third and six times a Hiroshima bomb.

IOW, conventional weapons ain't up to the task.

 

[tomBitonti]

Consider some RW terrorist attacks: the 9/11 planes were completely destroyed on impact and it took a long time to fell the towers. According to some estimates I have seen, each plane had the potential explosive force of up to 600 tons of TNT. McVeigh's bomb was equivalent to about 1000 tons of TNT. By way of comparison, a kaiju can do a face-plant into a skyscraper, bringing it down immediately and dust itself off as if it were the first punch in a bar brawl.

Those figures are way off. (Not sure how much to go by the figures below as being authoritative, but for the Oklahoma city bomb, the material quantity was about 12 or so barrels. No way to get 1000 Tons of explosion out of that, without going nuclear.)

The Oklahoma city bomb was equivalent to about 2.5 Tons of TNT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

The effects of the blast were equivalent to over 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of TNT,[59][71] and could be heard and felt up to 55 miles (89 km) away.[69] Seismometers at Science Museum Oklahoma in Oklahoma City, 4.3 miles (6.9 km) away, and in Norman, Oklahoma, 16.1 miles (25.9 km) away, recorded the blast as measuring approximately 3.0 on the Richter scale.[72]

This talks somewhat about the 9/11 explosions:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1833746-bomb-used-oklahoma-city-vs-planes.html

That is complicated by the inefficiency of the fuel explosion and a consideration of the kinetic energy of the planes (which was substantial). But that give a figure of about 600 pounds of TNT, not tons, for the 9/11 attack. But I thought the main problem of the 9/11 attack was weakening caused by the intense fire.

Thx!

TomB

 

[Umbran]

Can we not reasonbly predict the properties? Just keep it basic - only give the minimum properties required to make such a thing walk and move and do back-flips and whatever it does. What kind of strength would such a material require?

In theory, yes, we could produce an estimate. In practice... dude, I do have other things to do with my time, you know. If I were writing a novel with this as part of the basis, I'd go through the math. For this discussion, I'll go with, "we don't have the materials necessary," as sufficient.

A few notes on munitions: There is a theoretical maximum speed you can reach with a bullet using chemical explosives, based on the speed of burn of the propellant. Rockets/missiles of a given size have similar issues, based on the fact that they have to carry their fuel with them. So, we have some limits of how much momentum we can impart to any given class of weaponry. Specifically, the limits are stronger for smaller munitions - it you want to try to hit a moving target with something the size of an ICBM... well, good luck with that. If their skin is really tough, "bullets" might not do it.

So, Janx, I think suggested we make things the size of mecha fists and launch them. He seems to have missed the basic problem that they don't disappear once they've been launched - you still have this huge thing capable of damaging the kaiju, and therefore damaging the buildings around it bouncing around, hit or miss. Now, sure, in this fight there's going to be collateral damage, but perhaps we want to leave the ricochets to a minimum. Not to mention that truck-sized launching platforms do have a mobility and reloading problem...

I cannot give you a solid reason why mecha *must* be used - there's too much speculation involved. All I can do is give you vaguely plausible reasons why it might be done that way. I think the geopolitical answer is actually a pretty good one. I can add a "spinoff tech" answer - a mecha program would be expected to create far more NASA-style spinoff technologies that can be used in the civilian sector than any plain old explosive rocket, missile, and bullet program. In the long run, NASA more than pays for itself with tech spinoffs. This could render the mecha program not just effectively cheaper, but outright profitable to the economies that engage in it. You think that's going to happen from making better bullets?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Those figures are way off.

<snip>

You are indeed correct, sir! but what's an order of magnitude between freinds, huh?

(This, kiddies, is what sometimes happens when night people- like myself- are forced to operate during the early AM.)

Still, even with the corrected figure of 3.5 tons of TNT, the OKC bomb didn't bring down the building. Compare that to the casual way in which kaiju demolish skyscrapers without apparent damage to themselves. I'd still assert those buildings are like cardboard boxes to them.

 

[Bullgrit]

I should have posted these links earlier in the thread.

[video=youtube;CAZd0tu7jOg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAZd0tu7jOg[/video]

[video=youtube;Zcn3Mrzi2VE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcn3Mrzi2VE[/video]

[video=youtube;diLE4umndNM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diLE4umndNM[/video]

[video=youtube;kyY50rBet2U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyY50rBet2U[/video]

[video=youtube;zA92Rw6kNWw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA92Rw6kNWw[/video]

[video=youtube;ykPFc_SVnho]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykPFc_SVnho[/video]

Bullgrit

 

[Janx]

So, Janx, I think suggested we make things the size of mecha fists and launch them. He seems to have missed the basic problem that they don't disappear once they've been launched - you still have this huge thing capable of damaging the kaiju, and therefore damaging the buildings around it bouncing around, hit or miss. Now, sure, in this fight there's going to be collateral damage, but perhaps we want to leave the ricochets to a minimum. Not to mention that truck-sized launching platforms do have a mobility and reloading problem...

I was joking when I suggested launching rocket fists at the kaiju...
Mainly that it is cheaper/faster to build the fists and shoot them at the monster than to build the whole robot.

In other avenues of approach, consider:
viral attack. Odds are good we'll knock off a chunk of flesh during an early attack. With the bio-sample, we can deduce a bio-warfare solution to kill the kaiju. Then we'll just send a crop-duster overhead and spray the monster down with Kaiju-B-Gon.

Avatar Redux:
building a mecha requires huge factories to forge and assemble the parts. Growing our own kaiju based on DNA samples and replacing their brain with a neuro transmitter wired up to a pilot hiding in Cheyenne Mountain is a bit simpler.

Send in the Drones:
Big animals ignore tiny insects. Send in a drone to fly up behind it, land, and then deploy a burrowing machine to drill in and head for the spinal cord/brain. the drill could be a plasma torch or some other sci-fi cutting tool. If you believe in mechs, then we can work small scale robotics to solve the problem in a stealthier attack.

Poison Pills:
Find out what they eat (people, skyscrapers, etc). Plant some tasty treats. Kaiju Eats. Boom. the insides of most critters are not as tough as their outsides.

Move Away:
The best defense is you no be there. Move tokyo and other cities underground (or to flying sky cities). These monsters seem drawn to the cities, so stop living in them. Unless these monsters also like burrowing or can fly or swim, park your city where they can't go. I would bet the Kaiju can't swim, they walk along the ocean floor. So float your city in the middle of the deepest part of the ocean, and you'll be fine.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

IOW, conventional weapons ain't up to the task.

Pacific Rim states the first few kaiju were in fact taken down by conventional weapons. The first four or five appeared before the jaegers were built and the very first kaiju - which attacked San Fransico - died after days of attacks my missiles and similar weapons. Perhaps it is not a question of "Do normal weapons work at all?" as it is "How effective are they?" They might well work on the less powerful kaiju - categories 1 & 2, possibly 3 - but it requires considerable time for the cumulative effects to kill the beasts. In that period the kaiju destroys cities, inflicts massive property damage and kills many tax payers.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Have to say this but if you can kill a kaiju with weapons of the day then you can kill Cthulhu with them and for some reason this game of "What If" makes me sad now.

 

[tomBitonti]

Actually, the question of launching a fist using a rocket vs. the rocket powered punch as seen in the move seems to be a good question.

I am led to the question of what is different about what a Mecha delivers compared with what could be delivered by rocket. Both would applications of raw force. I fail to see a difference in character. Small differences are problems of aiming, and problems of delivery. Still, a medium sized rocket, laser guided by a spotting plane, seems most practical.

For delivery speeds, I'd think that bullets are limited by a combination of aerodynamics plus the materials necessary to contain the initial explosion (that propels the bullet). A rocket should be able to exceed this, especially if there were a final stage acceleration just before impact. But, even then, the rocket velocity would be less important than the payload, which could deliver the final kick using a shaped charge. In any case, the size and shape of the missile seem to provide aerodynamics orders of magnitude greater than what is possible for a bullet.

This has some interesting answers: http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellb.htm

With:

The theoretical maximum velocity attainable from normal commercial propellant powder and "conventional" loading densities is limited by the maximum velocity of expanding powder gases. Under ideal conditions this is stated as somewhere between 5700 f/s and 6000 f/s , and in conventional small arms between 4000-5000 f/s, by most authorities. Using specialized "solid propellants" the upper limit is theoretically about 13,000 f/s but at pressures way beyond practical.

Compared with typical air-to-air missiles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-to-air_missile

152 kg Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM United States 2008 18 kg Blast/fragmentation 180 km Mach 4

One mach is about 1,125 fps, so mach 4 gives about 4500 fps.

That is for a typical missile. There are experimental missiles which are much faster. For example:

http://www.economist.com/news/techn...-building-vehicles-fly-five-times-speed-sound

More recently America’s space agency, NASA, has made progress with two experimental scramjet vehicles, both of which are dropped from a carrier plane and then accelerated using a rocket booster. The unmanned, hydrogen-fuelled X-43A scramjet accelerated to a record Mach 9.68 in November 2004. This was the first fully controlled flight of a scramjet-powered vehicle, though it lasted only ten seconds.

Mach 9.68 is about 10,800 fps. I'd imagine that such a missile is larger by a factor of 10 or more than the AIM-120D, but perhaps not as dense.

Going completely kinetic, "Project Thor":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

In the case of the system mentioned in the 2003 USAF report above, a 6.1m x 0.3m tungsten cylinder impacting at Mach 10 has a kinetic energy equivalent to approximately 11.5 tons of TNT (or 7.2 tons of dynamite). The mass of such a cylinder is itself greater than 9 tons, so it is clear that the practical applications of such a system are limited to those situations where its other characteristics provide a decisive advantage - a conventional bomb/warhead of similar weight to the tungsten rod, delivered by conventional means, provides similar destructive capability and is a far more practical method.

That is 8 metric tons (8K kilograms, 9 tons of Tungsten) at Mach 10, or about 11,250 FPS.

I'm thinking the issue becomes a concentration of force problem: Getting the force concentrated into a small surface area. That is, since drop a 10 ton bomb seems a lot easier than orbiting and dropping and a Thor kinetic kill package.

Edit:

Still figuring what are typical velocities for penetrators, e.g., depleted uranium anti-tank projectiles.

This has figures of 1.5 to 3.0 Km/s:

http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no1/research-recherch-eng.asp

Here is a more detailed link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

With:

Typical velocities of APFSDS rounds vary between manufacturers and muzzle length/types. As a typical example, the American General Dynamics KEW-A1 has a muzzle velocity of 1,740 m/s (5,700 ft/s).[3] This compares to 914 m/s (3,000 ft/s) for a typical rifle (small arms) round. APFSDS rounds generally operate in the range of 1,400 to 1,900 m/s. The sabots also travel at such a high velocity that upon separation, they may continue for many hundreds of metres at speeds that can be lethal to troops and damage light vehicles.

Thx!

TomB