Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Well I didn't design the Pseudonatural Template and I can't recall offhand the various nuances thereof.

The pseudonatural template is truly ridiculous for creatures with high HD (such as immortals), even much more so than the paragon template, especially considering that it's available as a cosmic ability. It gives the creature spell resistance equal to its HD x 5, first off. It also replaces the creature's natural attacks with tentacle rake attacks that each deal 2d8 (for a Medium creature) + Strength modifier damage, and a creature with 24+ HD gets extra tentacle rake attacks equal to 6 + 1 per 4 HD above 24 HD. So a 32 HD Colossal demi-deity with Legendary Wisdom and Starstruck gets spell resistance 160 and, assuming it started off with 2 slams and 2 wing slaps (from Abnormality [Wings]), 12 tentacle rakes that each deal 8d8 + Strength modifier damage before virtual size categories and Improved Natural Attack are taken into account.

 

[dante58701]

The Pseudonatural Template actually makes sense if you consider the reality warping nature of Far Realm. I'm inclined to relegate it's high spell resistance to the concept of...it's really alien and magic doesn't affect it as well as it would affect a normal creature.

Of course they could have accomplished the same thing with Magic Immunity, which is really not all that bad considering even the weaker golems have that to some degree.

As for the physical attacks doing that much damage...that would be changed by Krusty's revisions to damage in the Epic Bestiary.

All else is simply an Epic Template. However, if Krusty were to revise the Paragon Template, the Pseudonatural Template, and the Worm that Walks Template, I might consider using them, although I'm pretty sure only the Paragon and Worm that Walks are in any real need of heavy revisions.

In light of size restrictions I've considered changing all aberrations, magic beasts, ect. with excessive Hit Dice into outsiders, albeit, not divine.

I think Krusty mentioned that outsiders need not necessarily be divine.

 

[dante58701]

Sadly we are (at least) a few months from its surfacing. Though I suppose I could put together an early beta and then get some help on that one before an actual release...hmmm.

I think a MACRO-FINE "YES!!!" is in order. I would give my left pinky toe for a beta release. If you did that, then we could playtest it and let you know how it works out.

 

[S'mon]

We can talk about it over the next week or so Alzrius mate.

All else is simply an Epic Template. However, if Krusty were to revise the Paragon Template, the Pseudonatural Template, and the Worm that Walks Template, I might consider using them, although I'm pretty sure only the Paragon and Worm that Walks are in any real need of heavy revisions.

Why don't I just revise the entire Epic Level Handbook while I'm at it.

In light of size restrictions I've considered changing all aberrations, magic beasts, ect. with excessive Hit Dice into outsiders, albeit, not divine.

I think Krusty mentioned that outsiders need not necessarily be divine.

If by outsiders you means aliens - then yes.

I'll do the other replies in the morning - bit tired.

 

[dante58701]

If by outsiders you means aliens - then yes.

Precisely, outsider to me sometimes means something alien, rather than divine.

Examples would included many creatures of extraplanar or extra terrestrial origin.

Or even creatures of terrestrial origin that are infused with extraplanar energies.

 

[WarDragon]

Aliens from other planets on the Prime would be humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other "natural" creature types.

Aliens from the Far Realm should definitely be outsiders.

 

[dante58701]

That's kinda what I'm going for. Illithids being an exception to the general rule. The Majority of aberrations are supposedly spawned from far realm according to various resources. This would make them outsiders. Illithids are supposedly spawned from an alternate material plane or the vastly distant future, making them completely alien to the standard material plane.

Mindflayers of Thoon are definitely outsiders as they have been tainted heavily by far realm.

Then of course there are the creatures with abnormally high Hit Dice. Either I ignore Krusty's ruling that Aberrations, Magical Beasts, and Monstrous Humanoids have normal non-magical physiologies, or I just make the outsiders to keep them more in line with their creators original intentions.

"Maximum Hit Dice: This guideline only applies to creatures with
natural physiognomies. It does not apply to Constructs, Fey, Outsiders or
(Intelligent) Undead." - Krusty

I honestly think "normal physiognomy" should only apply to animals, humanoids, and vermin.

"Legendary Animals
Its also possible to create variants on the theme. For example, to create
a legendary animal, you add the benefits of a behemoth animal template
to the base creature, but do not increase the creatures size. Of course the
increases are unnatural so creature type becomes outsider." - Krusty

Of course...who ever said that their physiognomies were normal. Especially considering aberrations are the very definition of "aberrant", magical beasts are as infused with magic as fey (sometimes more so), and monstrous humanoids are often as abnormal as aberrations.

In either case, I definitely do not buy aberrations as having normal physiognomies.

I honestly think "normal physiognomy" should only apply to animals, humanoids, and vermin.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

I have returned to my home plane!

Special thanks to S'mon and Zander for a great time in London. Lets do it all again in August for Gencon UK! Huzzah!

...on the subject of Aberrations I'm torn about the idea of making them outsiders and/or unnatural in terms of their physiology. Now I know that sounds crazy because aberrations have the weirdest physiology imaginable...but...to me they are dependant upon their physical forms for their inherant physicality. Whereas undead, fey and outsiders are not.

Now I am sure enterprising minds can concoct a way around that, but to me they are still flesh and bone if you know what I mean (and yes that is a generalism).

 

[dante58701]

Fey are just as flesh and bone as they are, so are constructs made of flesh and bone, as are outsiders originating from the mortal plane.

Aberrations, more than any other type, truly fit the definition of outlandishly abnormal. They are intended to defy all reason and logic...including statistical reason and logic.

What I consider to be abnormal in terms of physiology is anything at all that is blatantly abnormal (aboleth, etherguants, mind flayers, ect.) and anything infused with magical or psionic energy...which can severely affect things in an abnormal way.

Just because it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, doesn't mean it isn't an awakened shapechanged celestial tarrasque wizard.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I noticed that there's a big problem when it comes to summoning creatures with extra HD. Let's take a quasi-deity 25th-level human cleric (ECL 45) with double Evil portfolios. He has Automatic Metamagic Capacity x6, which he can use to heighten his summon monster ix spell-like ability to a summon monster xv. This lets him summon an ECL 30 and CR 20 "balor" (for the purpose of this example, I'm assuming that a balor is supposed to be a 15 HD hero-deity). Now, the balor's HD gets tripled to 45 HD because of the cleric's Perfect Summoning (Evil) ability, which is already quite overpowered considering that a 45 HD hero-deity is ECL 60 and CR 40, even more powerful than the cleric himself. But wait, because of the outsider advancement rules, a 45 HD balor gets 9 divine abilities and a +9 divine bonus among other things, supercharging it to ECL 90 and CR 60. And remember that the cleric can potentially use summon monster xv twice per round: once as a swift action and once as a standard action.