Immortals Handbook - Godsend

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Dante, I know it sounds cool to have a dragon with 30 heads breath for 30x damage. Is that fair, game wise? Is it even sane? Unless you really want Multi-headed to be the end-all-beat-all template, I do suggest you cut damage from breath attacks by the number of heads.

An example: In the Draconomicon 3.5E, there is a monster called the Pyroclastic Dragon. All you need to know about it for the sake of this example is that one of it's breathweapons is a Disintegration Beam. (A line of Save-or-Die) Now, by the rules as best I know, there really isn't any defense against this perticular kind of attack. (Not technically a 'death effect' so Death Ward doesn't apply, and asside from a DM houseruling that the Proof Against Transmutation property from the Players Guid to Faerun is applicable, this attack is indeed unstoppable by anything less than a god)
Now, what would happen if I added, say, 30 heads to this dragon? Hm? By the Math, it should only be ~30 levels higher, right? CR ~55? Doesn't sound bad? 40~ HD, lots of bite attacks?. About as strong as a Hecatonchieres? Well, I can tell you that CR 55 is wrong. It's probably closer to 550! This monster can force 31 saves VS Auto-death on a single character (or even a group of characters) each 1d4+1 rounds. (Less if it takes some of the oh-so-fun feats in the Draconomicon) The odds of rolling a '1' are quite high.
So it doesn't matter if you are Thor, Darth Vader, Gandalf, or King Arthur, If you are caught in it's breath weapons and have the misfortune of being made of matter, you will die.

On to Virtual Sizes: Once a character can gain 45 HD from the free HD gained from virtual size, the system spirals out of control. (45 HD = 15 feats = +15 strength) Gaining 45 HD from that table is not difficult.

 

[dante58701]

The 30-Headed Dragon you're referring to is an extreme case. As is a Pyroclastic Dragon.

Not to mention, I never said anything about dragons in the first place. I'm talking about a 3-Faced, 6-Armed, 6-Legged Humanoid with 3 eyes on each face.

I fail to see how that feat would break the system, when it's prerequisites are insanely difficult to meet in the first place.

My humanoid (Outsider of course) would have to have an Dexterity and Intelligence of 30 for Multi-Faced/Multi-Headed Mastery to apply to both Extra Heads.

He would also have to take it twice.

I could potentially see it as a Divine Ability, rather than a feat, but I desperately need it to function exactly as it does for the flavor of the deity I'm trying to build.

I would increase the Dexterity and Intelligence prerequisites to 35+ each +5/Extra Face/Head in that case.

I can't see diminishing the Breath [Effect]'s damage output, but I can see taking Breath [Effect] individually for each face.

Finally, we are talking about deities and epic creatures anyways. That feat, as written is an Epic feat.

Non-epic characters should not be fighting Epic characters and last time I checked any 30-Headed Dragon would be immediately set upon by one, if not more than one deity anyways (who I doubt would be so stupid as to allow it to use it's breath weapons in the first place).

Extra Face/Head is a divine ability under the Abnormality ability. I don't use the Multi-headed creature template as it's both out-dated and broken.

Without the multi-faced/multi-headed creature template the Multi-Faced/Headed Mastery feat would be difficult to abuse.

I fail to see how the feat is even broken considering extra heads already grant you a standard action of one extra spell or spell-like ability. How is that any different from using a breath weapon when many spells can easily mimic or even surpass breath weapons.

In the case of a Hecaton, you are forgetting that those heads are all vestigial (cosmetic) and not functional.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

What I was trying to say is that multiple heads, for their listed level adjustment, should NOT multiply the base creature's power. I know it might not make sense. It seems (to me) that making multiple heads multiply any breath weapon effectiveness sets bad precedent.

Now, pricing each [Effect] separately might be a better way to go. (As far as deitys are concerned) So that each extra fully functional head would cost up to 5 divine slots/levels. (1 per each extra head, and 1-4 for the Effect of your choice) Compare this to something like Legendary Strength, Thelemic Damage Reduction, or Soniferous, and it becomes a good bit more reasonable. But multiple heads doubling all the attacks/divine abilities related to the head, while it makes sense thematically, wrecks intended game balance unless paid for (in this case by divine slots or levels) appropriatly.

As long as the abilities in question don't cause problems in game and the cost is not too cheap compared to the benifit, then there should not be a problem. Cutting corners and taking cost-saving shortcuts like this are what break down the game.

Just my 2 copper pieces.

 

[dante58701]

Abnormality (Extra Face/Head) grants you +1 bite attack, or +1 spell (which can be worse than any breath weapon). It is a divine ability after all.

Multi-Face/Headed Mastery grants you a standard action and the ability to use that head in lieu of your primary head.

You also couldn't use it to abuse the Meta-Breath feats. It just doesn't function that way. In fact, it would prevent that very abuse from occurring with the way it's worded, essentially neutering metabreath feats in a logical way.

All it does is allow for more flexibility in what actions your face/head can take. Instead of being limited to biting or spell-casting, your extra head can stand guard, sing, lick it's talons clean, speak to someone, etc..

I have never been a fan of the one-trick-pony vestigial head. It makes absolutely no sense at all when it can do as much as cast spells.

I do see the need for pricing Breath [Effect] separately for each head.

Of course when you want Uncanny [Effect] [Effect], you would have to take it separately. Otherwise it would detract from your breath weapons.

Example: Extra Head (x3) = Fire Breath (x3-x12) (x1-x4 for each head); Also Uncanny Fire Mastery (taken separately). Two of your heads could use Fire Breath, while one of your heads casts a spell, uses Fire Strike, or nibbles his bum.

Ultimately this would all be very costly, but power never comes without a price. It's a lot of divine slots being used. But it's completely fair considering the benefit and cost are equal.

If your extra heads cast your quickened spells for your using Multi-Faced/Multi-HEaded Mastery those quickened spells would all count against your quickened spells for that round.

Back to Virtual Size Categories granting more Racial Hit Dice...

I gave it a lot more thought and came to the conclusion my initial interpretations of VSC HD increases were off their mark by more than a little.

Racial Hit Dice base on VSCs would make more sense if instead of being doubled for each VSC, they gradiently increased base upon their actual mass.

I'll show you what I mean.

Medium-size Humanoid (260 pounds is average)

1 VSC = 520 lb. = 4HD (not 6HD)
2 VSC = 1,040 lb. = 5HD (not 12HD)
3 VSC = 2,080 lb. = 6HD (not 24HD)
4 VSC = 4,160 lb. = 8HD (not 48HD)
5 VSC = 8,320 lb. = 9HD (not 96HD)

This wouldn't be too complicated to employ and would solve the problem of VSC's giving too many racial HD to those who have them.

This might mean recalculating certain golem's HD, but this isn't so bad when you consider this fixes the entire flaw that seems inherent in VSC's.

If something's mass is doubled it isn't necessarily accurate to double it's HD. Why would any 4 ton object have more HD than any other 4 ton object unless it were constructed that way.

Outsiders of course can easily exceed this.

Larger creatures with actual Size increases gain far more mass than creatures that have Virtual Size categories. Thus they have many more HD.

After having given it plenty of thought I have come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action and will definitely be implementing it in my campaigns.

It certainly quells both arguments and allows for physics to come into play. VSCs do increase HD, just not at the rate I was assuming. It's actually a very minimal increase.

I was mistakenly under the assumption that the Legendary Animal template multiplied the HD due to VSCs that were inherent in the template. I was incredibly wrong =^.^=

Formula

HD = SHD FTM (Standard Hit Dice For Total Mass)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey dante mate!

Abnormality (Extra Face/Head) grants you +1 bite attack, or +1 spell (which can be worse than any breath weapon). It is a divine ability after all.

Technically the spellcasting should be akin to a free quickened spell, not an entirely new set of spells.

Multi-Face/Headed Mastery grants you a standard action and the ability to use that head in lieu of your primary head.

Where is this from?

You also couldn't use it to abuse the Meta-Breath feats. It just doesn't function that way. In fact, it would prevent that very abuse from occurring with the way it's worded, essentially neutering metabreath feats in a logical way.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that happening. What it sounds like is you are trying to abuse the system to gain an unfair advantage.

All it does is allow for more flexibility in what actions your face/head can take. Instead of being limited to biting or spell-casting, your extra head can stand guard, sing, lick it's talons clean, speak to someone, etc..

Its about damage output, not flexibility.

I do see the need for pricing Breath [Effect] separately for each head.

There is no need. You are going to break the system if you continue along this path.

Example: Extra Head (x3) = Fire Breath (x3-x12) (x1-x4 for each head); Also Uncanny Fire Mastery (taken separately). Two of your heads could use Fire Breath, while one of your heads casts a spell, uses Fire Strike, or nibbles his bum.

Or you could simply choose to cast a spell one round and then use the breath weapon the next round.

Ultimately this would all be very costly, but power never comes without a price. It's a lot of divine slots being used. But it's completely fair considering the benefit and cost are equal.

Its not fair when the "costs" become irrelevant, which is what they do at epic levels.

If your extra heads cast your quickened spells for your using Multi-Faced/Multi-HEaded Mastery those quickened spells would all count against your quickened spells for that round.

Correct. With each extra head granting a single +4 metamagic (which must be used for quickened) spell in the event of multiple spells being cast.

Back to Virtual Size Categories granting more Racial Hit Dice...

I gave it a lot more thought and came to the conclusion my initial interpretations of VSC HD increases were off their mark by more than a little.

Racial Hit Dice base on VSCs would make more sense if instead of being doubled for each VSC, they gradiently increased base upon their actual mass.

It makes even more sense removing the problem altogether.

I'll show you what I mean.

Medium-size Humanoid (260 pounds is average)

1 VSC = 520 lb. = 4HD (not 6HD)
2 VSC = 1,040 lb. = 5HD (not 12HD)
3 VSC = 2,080 lb. = 6HD (not 24HD)
4 VSC = 4,160 lb. = 8HD (not 48HD)
5 VSC = 8,320 lb. = 9HD (not 96HD)

This wouldn't be too complicated to employ and would solve the problem of VSC's giving too many racial HD to those who have them.

Theres no logical reason why Hit Dice via VSCs should increase at that rate. Theres also no worthwhile benefit to VSCs via that method anywa. So you'd be much better off avoiding what is an unnecessary complication.

This might mean recalculating certain golem's HD, but this isn't so bad when you consider this fixes the entire flaw that seems inherent in VSC's.

I don't agree with this course of action.

If something's mass is doubled it isn't necessarily accurate to double it's HD. Why would any 4 ton object have more HD than any other 4 ton object unless it were constructed that way.

Technically speaking Hit Dice should only double when Mass is increased eightfold.

Outsiders of course can easily exceed this.

With Outsiders the problem becomes irrelevant.

Larger creatures with actual Size increases gain far more mass than creatures that have Virtual Size categories. Thus they have many more HD.

After having given it plenty of thought I have come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action and will definitely be implementing it in my campaigns.

I wish you the best of luck in both endeavours.

It certainly quells both arguments and allows for physics to come into play. VSCs do increase HD, just not at the rate I was assuming. It's actually a very minimal increase.

I was mistakenly under the assumption that the Legendary Animal template multiplied the HD due to VSCs that were inherent in the template. I was incredibly wrong =^.^=

Formula

HD = SHD FTM (Standard Hit Dice For Total Mass)

VSCs would indeed increase Hit Dice, but I hate these self-perpetuating rules that can be abused so freely.

 

[Belzamus]

I hope this isn't too far off topic (Dante did mention golems above) but what is up with the Orichalcum Golem's (Guardian, Sentinel, Gargant, Colossus, Leviathan) CR? Firstly, it seems way to low for several of the entries (almost a guerenteed one-shot TPK) and secondly, the CR barely goes up from Sentinel to Gargant even though its power nearly doubles. Am I missing something here?

 

[dante58701]

Hey dante mate!

Hey there =^.^=

Technically the spellcasting should be akin to a free quickened spell, not an entirely new set of spells.

First, it doesn't say that. Second, that would make it more worthy of Epic Feat status rather than Divine Ability status.

"YAY!!! MY EXTRA HEAD DOES NOTHING OF VALUE!!! YAY!!!" - Me at my next gaming session. Yeah, consider that notion completely disregarded since you can already cast more than one spell around in that manner without the extra heads and you have just relegated an entire divine ability to mere flavor text.

There are already innumerable creatures who's multiple heads do MUCH more than that at Non-epic levels.

As a MASTER at abusing the system I assure that it is not any more over-powered than many official WOTC class features and feats.

I think ur just splitting hairs at this point.

Everyone fears multi-faced/headed creatures to the point of absurdity.

Where is this from?

You should follow the thread more closely

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that happening. What it sounds like is you are trying to abuse the system to gain an unfair advantage.

Here we go with assumptions again. Ever consider that I'm trying to make something fit thematically, instead of worrying about neutering it so it's "FAIR" for the other gamers?

Let me let you in on something...

NOTHING ABOUT EPIC IS FAIR UNLESS EVERYONE ELSE CAN DO IT TOO

I don't allow rules for one character and not another. I also keep a close eye on things so that rules aren't abused (at least from my gaming group's perspective)

Very few gamers actually agree on everything. I'll consider this one of those moments. I'm only interested in what is right for my campaign.

Instead of saying "NO", like an admonishing parent (as funny as I think it is...and I do take it good-naturedly so relax ), why don't you actually calm down and think about what I'm saying. I'm sure if you were completely fair about it (seeing the whole picture) you would realize that what I'm suggesting is not so overpowered as you might think.

Its about damage output, not flexibility.

I disagree, entirely. It is about flexibility. Damage output is just another sacred cow when it comes to multi-headed creatures.

There is nothing FAIR about a multi-head creature. But it isn't any less fair than Automatic Metamagic Capacity (x whatever), Metamagic Freedom, and Quicken Spell. Those feats by your own logic are completely broken.

In fact, it seems to me that you're following 4.0 a little too closely and have lost touch with 3.5 material.

There is no need. You are going to break the system if you continue along this path.

According to all of your earlier posts 3.5 is broken anyways. So this is a moot point.

Or you could simply choose to cast a spell one round and then use the breath weapon the next round.

How bout we not go the VESTIGIAL HEAD route. That's just completely illogical and defies all conception of biology as we know it. Not to mention countless fantasy books.

Its not fair when the "costs" become irrelevant, which is what they do at epic levels.

Your idea of irrelevent and mine are obviously very different.

Correct. With each extra head granting a single +4 metamagic (which must be used for quickened) spell in the event of multiple spells being cast.

Yet again, you didn't read the whole thread.

It makes even more sense removing the problem altogether.

No it doesn't, that is the head in the sand routine.

Theres no logical reason why Hit Dice via VSCs should increase at that rate.

It's perfectly logical. This chart applies to a 260 lb. Human that acquires VSC's. I actually used one of your own tables to calculate this.

Unless of course you think all of your math is wrong??? In which case we better scrap the Epic Bestiary entirely.

Theres also no worthwhile benefit to VSCs via that method anywa. So you'd be much better off avoiding what is an unnecessary complication.

Actually there is, it's just so minimal that it only matters in terms of accuracy and realism. I prefer accuracy and realism.

I don't agree with this course of action.

Of course not, it's more work.

Technically speaking Hit Dice should only double when Mass is increased eightfold.

Your right.

With Outsiders the problem becomes irrelevant.

It depends entirely on the outsider.

I wish you the best of luck in both endeavours.

=^.^=

VSCs would indeed increase Hit Dice, but I hate these self-perpetuating rules that can be abused so freely.

It isn't really abusable. You're forgetting that it counts against your Character Level. This is hardly abuse.

Especially for such a tiny increase in racial HD.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Belzamus matey!

I hope this isn't too far off topic (Dante did mention golems above) but what is up with the Orichalcum Golem's (Guardian, Sentinel, Gargant, Colossus, Leviathan) CR? Firstly, it seems way to low for several of the entries (almost a guerenteed one-shot TPK) and secondly, the CR barely goes up from Sentinel to Gargant even though its power nearly doubles. Am I missing something here?

The really problem with ridiculously high construct hit dice is that the hit dice itself is one of the worst in terms of actual benefits.

Thats one of the reasons why the Neutronium Golem doesn't have the variants, I just knew the Hit Dice would get ridiculously imbalanced as it already does with the Orichalcum Golem.

The Sentinel also benefits from having the magic item(s). These make a much bigger impact than the Hit Dice.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there =^.^=

Hiya mate!

First, it doesn't say that. Second, that would make it more worthy of Epic Feat status rather than Divine Ability status.

"YAY!!! MY EXTRA HEAD DOES NOTHING OF VALUE!!! YAY!!!" - Me at my next gaming session. Yeah, consider that notion completely disregarded since you can already cast more than one spell around in that manner without the extra heads and you have just relegated an entire divine ability to mere flavor text.

The problem is that one spell is the equivalent of 4 (or more) attacks in 3E.

There are already innumerable creatures who's multiple heads do MUCH more than that at Non-epic levels.

Such as?

As a MASTER at abusing the system I assure that it is not any more over-powered than many official WOTC class features and feats.

I think ur just splitting hairs at this point.

Everyone fears multi-faced/headed creatures to the point of absurdity.

Just divide the breath weapon damage between the heads.

You should follow the thread more closely

...my time and memory are both limited.

Here we go with assumptions again. Ever consider that I'm trying to make something fit thematically, instead of worrying about neutering it so it's "FAIR" for the other gamers?

Balance isn't neutering. If you want something unbalanced just make it all up as you go along.

Let me let you in on something...

NOTHING ABOUT EPIC IS FAIR UNLESS EVERYONE ELSE CAN DO IT TOO

Exactly, which is why I am not allowing it for anyone - voila - a level playing field.

I don't allow rules for one character and not another. I also keep a close eye on things so that rules aren't abused (at least from my gaming group's perspective)

Very few gamers actually agree on everything. I'll consider this one of those moments. I'm only interested in what is right for my campaign.

Well I can't tell you what to do in your campaign. I can only suggest what I think is best for the majority of campaigns.

Instead of saying "NO", like an admonishing parent (as funny as I think it is...and I do take it good-naturedly so relax ), why don't you actually calm down and think about what I'm saying. I'm sure if you were completely fair about it (seeing the whole picture) you would realize that what I'm suggesting is not so overpowered as you might think.

Its potentially ridiculous. Allowing an individual to double their damage output with a single divine ability, when I generally outline that something akin to a cosmic power is required to double damage output.

You could always just take Dual Actions.

I disagree, entirely. It is about flexibility. Damage output is just another sacred cow when it comes to multi-headed creatures.

I don't think thats quite the gist of the term sacred cow.

There is nothing FAIR about a multi-head creature. But it isn't any less fair than Automatic Metamagic Capacity (x whatever), Metamagic Freedom, and Quicken Spell. Those feats by your own logic are completely broken.

Tell you what then. You can have the damage on one condition. You divide your own hit points between each head. When your character gets hit with a spell or area effect the damage upon it affects each head seperately.

In fact, it seems to me that you're following 4.0 a little too closely and have lost touch with 3.5 material.

Thats totally true. 4E is the vastly superior system, and makes 99% of our arguments irrelevant.

According to all of your earlier posts 3.5 is broken anyways. So this is a moot point.

So it is.

How bout we not go the VESTIGIAL HEAD route. That's just completely illogical and defies all conception of biology as we know it. Not to mention countless fantasy books.

See above for my deal - take it or leave it.

Yet again, you didn't read the whole thread.

I have read the whole thread - I just haven't memorised it.

It's perfectly logical. This chart applies to a 260 lb. Human that acquires VSC's. I actually used one of your own tables to calculate this.

Unless of course you think all of your math is wrong??? In which case we better scrap the Epic Bestiary entirely.

Its no more wrong than the rest of 3E.

Actually there is, it's just so minimal that it only matters in terms of accuracy and realism. I prefer accuracy and realism.

Feel free to use it at your leisure.

Of course not, it's more work.

Its not the work itself, its the worth of the work.

It isn't really abusable. You're forgetting that it counts against your Character Level. This is hardly abuse.

Especially for such a tiny increase in racial HD.

If its such a tiny increase - as you attest - then why is it worth it? To me it doesn't seem worth the bother.

 

[dante58701]

Xxx