Input for starting a Star Wars Saga Edition game?

[vagabundo]

I started a GMing a Saga game last year. So this is still pretty fresh for me.

There are a tonnes of online fan-made PDFs out there I use while gaming on my laptop. I'll collect some links and post them later.

For the start I'd limit the books. Keep to the Core and maybe an era book. Add books later as you see fit, as players get more comfortable with the rules etc.

Star Wars really benefits from props (pictures , music, etc) for setting the Star Wars mood. Creating interesting free form encounter and getting Players into that mode is the key. It took a bit of practice and prep, but it really pays off. One thing I found hard at first was learning all the Star Wars lore. I knew the films pretty well and a little extra, but running a game there requires you to get into the nitty gritty of the setting or just improvising stuff. Wookiepedia is great for all the background research.

The D20radio Order 66 Podcasts are a fab resource. Start from the 1st episode, they are a little geeky, but easy to listen to and cover tonnes of mechanics. They gave me loads of encounter/story ideas and cleared up some of the finicky rules for me.


The only rules issue I've had is my power gamer gravitated to Jedi and it is easy to trick out a very powerful Jedi character. He tried to use Mind Trick a lot to bypass social encounters. Dark Side points and Jedi code are the only ways to keep Jedi in check, but you need to put some thought into it if you see a player going that way. The Order 66 podcast have some good episodes covering Dark Side points and well worth a listen if you find a player going that way.

I would stay away from Star ship battles for a few levels. Start with throwing in some land vehicles into combat first. Once you get to using Star Ships you will need Star Ships of the Galaxy.

I haven't really used any House Rules yet, because the core rules are pretty good. Most of the minor niggles are worth the hassle of house rules. The only one I did add was a power config rule for star fighters for an encounter, very similar to the X-Wing PC games and that was because most of my players had played those, but I abandoned it as it was way too powerful (we still had a blast though). I would possibly add in mooks/minions rules in some form.

Sorry this post is disorganized, it is just a brain dump.

 

[Quickleaf]

Ben]As far as Umbran said with the ship combat, I would typically disagree but it is a matter of GMing style. I always find things for my PCs to do unless they are just being a poor sport and want to sit tight and hang on (their own choice.)

Some things I've had non-tech / non-starship combat oriented characters do:
- Roll perception to assist in incoming attacks/formations
- Roll perception to "insight" enemy intentions /future formations
- Knowledge tactics to assist with flanking maneuvers / positioning
- Various lore/knowledge skills to help with enemy tactics, weaknesses, combat types
- Use computer to help run systems and sensors to locate incoming attack types, jam communications, lower enemy shields, make cyber attacks on enemy command structure, or overall just hack the enemy ship to try to take it over/cause damage
- Force users can hurl objects (all they need is line of sight/effect but force powers can go through walls and long distances a la Vader force choking over a screen) or use other powers at distance to assist with the ship's maneuvers/combat
- Soldier types can use their own attack roll (this is a house-rule I've created) as opposed to the ship's when manning manual-fired guns
- Leader types can roll Persuasion and other checks to boost the overall speed and efficiency of the crew, the accuracy of its gunmen, and the capability of its defenders
- Try to do boarding operations so the melee/soldier types can actually get onto another ship and do some damage (or the reverse, have bad guys board their ship)

Great inspiration! Yeah after reading thru the vehicle combat sectionwith the different roles (pilot, gunner, systems operator, mechanic), about how to make starship battles interesting in Starships of the Galaxy, and the skill challenge rules in Galaxy of Intrigue, I think it shouldn't be too hard to run starship battles that keep all the players involved.

So maybe I could get some feedback on the house rules I'm considering so far? I haven't come up with a solution for the Skill vs. Defense issue that I'm happy with yet though.

Proposed House Rules for SWSE & Reasoning

Defenses: Advance +1 per every two levels (instead of +1 per level) so that defenses don't outstrip attack bonuses at higher levels. Also I'm doing what 4e does where you take the better of CON/STR for Fortitude, DEX/INT for Reflex, and WIS/CHA for Will.

Hit Points: Use a set +HP / level instead of rolling and adding CON modifier; for the same reason 4e does this, to avoid character HP disparities and not make CON exponentially important for survival. Instead CON modifier only applies to HP at character creation.

Jedi, Soldier +6 HP/level
Scout +5 HP/level
Noble, Scoundrel +4 HP/level

I derived these by taking half of the classes' hit die and rounding up.

Class/Trained Skills: All skills are class skills (except for Use the Force for non-Jedi who must take the Force Sensitivity feat as normal), allowing more diversity and making multi-classing less necessary.

Characters begin with more trained skills because I want to allow players to take unusual skills that round out their PCs without sacrificing utility to the rest of the group. PCs don't add their INT modifier to their number of trained skills. Instead, PCs with Intelligence 16 gain 1 bonus trained skill and PCs with Intelligence 18+ gain 2 bonus trained skills.

Jedi 4 trained skills + Use the Force
Noble 8 trained skills
Scoundrel 6 trained skills
Scout 7 trained skills
Soldier 5 trained skills

Effectively I'm treating all PCs as if they have an INT modifier of +2 as a given for the purposes of bonus trained skills. And I'm giving Jedi Use the Force as a bonus trained skill for free.

Advancement Option: At levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 when a PC gains a bonus feat they may instead choose a bonus talent. Just following my gut instinct that my players will feel short-changed when it comes to talents, especially with all the cool options in the class splats.

Athletics: Replacing Climb, Jump, and Swim with Athletics skill just like 4e. So action oriented characters don't have to burn scarce skills just to be competent at action scenes like rooftop chases, leaping after the escaping Sith, etc.

I'm not sure if I'll need to do anything for the Skill vs Defense issue, but I'm looking at options from a Skill Attack Modifier Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible, to introducing an Insight skill and disallowing Skill Focus (Use the Force). I'm just not sure. Our group isn't that heavy on powergaming, so it may not even be an issue.

 

[Umbran]

Great inspiration! Yeah after reading thru the vehicle combat sectionwith the different roles (pilot, gunner, systems operator, mechanic), about how to make starship battles interesting in Starships of the Galaxy, and the skill challenge rules in Galaxy of Intrigue, I think it shouldn't be too hard to run starship battles that keep all the players involved.

It really depends on the skill and proficiency choices in the party:

The pilot role calls for Piloting skill. The gunner should have heavy weapons proficiency. The system operator ought to have Use Computer, and the Mechanic requires Mechanics skill.

Some of those skills are restricted to certain classes - if that class isn't represented in your party, or if the player of that class has a concept that doesn't really include that skill or proficiency, you're a bit stuck. My group, for example, completely lacks Use Computer and Heavy Weapons proficiency among the PCs. And it isn't much fun watching NPCs fight your battles for you.

This is what I mean by, "if you plan ahead, it can work", but I find the recommendation that you can get everyone involved a bit glib if it wasn't considered during character generation.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] I never claimed anything of the sort. Actually I realized the same thing about key skills for starship battles, and that's one of the reasons I want to house rules out class skills (see above post).

 

[Umbran]

[MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] I never claimed anything of the sort. Actually I realized the same thing about key skills for starship battles, and that's one of the reasons I want to house rules out class skills (see above post).

Ah. Well, that seems like a heavy approach to me.

If the players are into starship combat, it shouldn't be difficult to get them to stat up with that in mind. They just may not realize they ought to if they haven't played the system before. A simple, "Guys, remember there may be starship fights, and that you want to be able to have something to do in them," should do the trick.

If the players aren't into starship combat, then you don't want to use it much, challenging Jedi or no.

 

[Umbran]

Proposed House Rules for SWSE & Reasoning

Defenses: Advance +1 per every two levels (instead of +1 per level) so that defenses don't outstrip attack bonuses at higher levels. Also I'm doing what 4e does where you take the better of CON/STR for Fortitude, DEX/INT for Reflex, and WIS/CHA for Will.

Beware of unintended consequences.

In my experience, defenses don't generally outstrip attack bonuses in SWSE, like AC can outstrip BAB in D&D. The soldier and Jedi types keep up like they are supposed to, largely because there are relatively few ways to improve Defenses in SWSE.

Also note that attack bonuses are not the only thing that goes against those defenses. Many Force Powers are "roll Use the Force against the target's X Defense" - and if you cut those defenses, you are making the characters more vulnerable to those powers.

Hit Points: Use a set +HP / level instead of rolling and adding CON modifier; for the same reason 4e does this, to avoid character HP disparities and not make CON exponentially important for survival. Instead CON modifier only applies to HP at character creation.

Jedi, Soldier +6 HP/level
Scout +5 HP/level
Noble, Scoundrel +4 HP/level

We use the class values you use above, but we apply con modifiers, and find that works well. Some of the things in SWSE do a lot of damage when characters get rolling. You might not want to cut their hit points overmuch.

Class/Trained Skills: All skills are class skills (except for Use the Force for non-Jedi who must take the Force Sensitivity feat as normal), allowing more diversity and making multi-classing less necessary.

In D&D, multiclassing is a pain because it gets in the way of spellcasting ability. Note that in SWSE, this is not the case.

Effectively I'm treating all PCs as if they have an INT modifier of +2 as a given for the purposes of bonus trained skills. And I'm giving Jedi Use the Force as a bonus trained skill for free.

I don't know how this will work out, but color me skeptical. I am, however a "least change to get the desired result" kind of guy.

Advancement Option: At levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 when a PC gains a bonus feat they may instead choose a bonus talent. Just following my gut instinct that my players will feel short-changed when it comes to talents, especially with all the cool options in the class splats.

This will lead to power-bloat, especially for Force users. The cool options are limited for a reason.

[/quote]I'm not sure if I'll need to do anything for the Skill vs Defense issue[/quote]

See above about Defenses. I don't know what issue you're referring to. Some folks think that Defenses outstrip skills*. But, above you've already cut the growth of Defenses to the same rate as skills. Are you sure your issue still exists after that change?




*Defenses grow as +1/level, and skills as +1/2levels. I think it just means that at higher level, a character who wants to directly affect another character with skills has to work at it (back up the skill use with their stat raises with level, feats, talents, or Force powers) if they want to be sure of success. To me, that looks like a feature, not a flaw - those who focus on doing a thing should be better at doing that thing.

 

[Quickleaf]

See above about Defenses. I don't know what issue you're referring to. Some folks think that Defenses outstrip skills*. But, above you've already cut the growth of Defenses to the same rate as skills. Are you sure your issue still exists after that change?

*Defenses grow as +1/level, and skills as +1/2levels. I think it just means that at higher level, a character who wants to directly affect another character with skills has to work at it (back up the skill use with their stat raises with level, feats, talents, or Force powers) if they want to be sure of success. To me, that looks like a feature, not a flaw - those who focus on doing a thing should be better at doing that thing.

My understanding - not from actual play yet, just from copious forum reading - is that at low levels Skill Attacks (Use the Force, Persuasion, Deception) vs. Defenses have a really high chance to hit (easily 85-95%). At mid-levels apparently it evens out a bit, but then at high levels Defenses become hard for anyone but optimized soldiers & jedi to hit. At least, that seems to be the consensus from what I can gather.

 

[[OMENRPG]Ben]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION] that is also correct from my point of view, although really the only characters who should be "hitting" anything with skills are Jedi or computer users.

As far as heavy weapons proficiency and everything for ship combat, I still allow the players to use teh weapons even if they don't have the ability, just at a non-proficiency penalty (I think I've used -2 to -4 before).

I think that allowing Talents will make your party devastatingly too powerful. Talents are uber buff, especially the Prestige class talents.

Hit Points shouldnt' be nerfed too hard unless you want your players to really feel the pain in survival type of situations, as eventually (depending on the era) most parties will get enough medical equipment to kind of make healing not really matter. Big giant fights, or lots of little ones, or really long ones, are pretty much the only way to kill the party (other than space mishaps.)

Some of my advice is a little hyperbolic, but I tend to run pretty "high impact" games with SW, since the players like feeling incredibly heroic.

Sadly, just last night, my current SWSE game ended in a TPK. My first and only ever TPK in SW. They made the foolish mistake of sending a lone pilot to pick up an ally on a planet, that pilot was summarily killed, and the ship reprogrammed with the main ship's coordinates (where the rest of the PCs were located) and hyperspeed collided into it. They were all vaporized.

I think that your defenses solution is valid similar to 4e, I've done it both ways. Problem with that is you get characters who then min-max more appropriately to consolidate the power into attributes that are the core for their build.

Anyway, star wars is hard to not have fun in (in my experience) so whichever route you go, I'm sure you guys will enjoy it. We're rolling up another game (as our fun side-game from OMEN playtesting) this Monday, and I'll let you know how that goes.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6677983][OMENRPG]Ben[/MENTION] Nasty tactic! Are there rules for that kind of "starship hyperspeed collision" as a deliberate attack? Or how did you rule it?

I poured over the attack vs Defense numbers in light of [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] 's point, and I think I'll keep defenses as "+level" since otherwise it does seem to encourage more optimization (eg. Average 13+ to hit at 14th level with full level bonus, versus an average 9+ with half level).

And I'll heed what you both said about not allowing talents in place of bonus feats. Sigh.

So I've done a bit of brainstorming on the overall setup/setting of the KOTOR game I want to run... I'm going with 3636 BBY (or in the timeline used in the MMORPG, 17 ATC), which is 5 years after the events of the MMORPG and the Fatal Alliance novel (with the Sith Emperor missing and presumed dead, Sith cultists scattering across the worlds). I'm leaning toward this time period because there are two players in my group who are into the MMORPG, and because there isn't much in the way of canon to constrain us.

I'll post the "crawl text" in a bit to convey the feel of the setting...I'm still researching and writing it out. But I do know that the earlier adventures will involve the PCs looking for an old hyperspace beacon from before the Mandalorian Wars with navigational data for some secret location that a Sith/Mandalorian alchemist is trying to find as well. Empress Teta in the Deep Core and the carbonite trade will factor in somehow.

For now I'll keep it to broad strokes until we get together in august to make characters. So I've got a month to hammer out my ideas

 

[MerricB]

It should be noted that the skill system is broken when you start using skills as attack rolls (Force Powers, mostly). You need to do something to fix the wonky maths there.

Also, I'd advise some house ruling (I'd use healing surges) if you run a combat-heavy game, because healing in SW is a pain - it's too difficult given the genre and how much damage you take in combat.