IRON DM revival!
incognito
First Post
Ha! You guys didn't expect me here soon, eh?
The doctor is IN, and he is reading the submissions, now.
A winner will be posted in while, if y'all want to trash talk in the meantime...
That will determine the winner of this IRON DM, and a small gold crown.
for the BIG_GOLD_CROWN the winner must face off against Vaxalon, which will occur Monday, as soon as VAX, and the winner are ready.
As per the last IRON DM grand championship, in addition to the "strandard ingredients, there will be a serious of optional ingredients, which need not be used. If they are used well...bonus points. Ahh, but if they are used poorly (judged arbitrarily by your own IRON DM judge, of course), you will have points deducted!
The doctor is IN, and he is reading the submissions, now.
A winner will be posted in while, if y'all want to trash talk in the meantime...
That will determine the winner of this IRON DM, and a small gold crown.
for the BIG_GOLD_CROWN the winner must face off against Vaxalon, which will occur Monday, as soon as VAX, and the winner are ready.
As per the last IRON DM grand championship, in addition to the "strandard ingredients, there will be a serious of optional ingredients, which need not be used. If they are used well...bonus points. Ahh, but if they are used poorly (judged arbitrarily by your own IRON DM judge, of course), you will have points deducted!
incognito
First Post
R3: Wicht vs Seasong
Just a quick reminder: Use of the ingredients is one of the key elements in winning a round. Not the only element, but key. In this round, explained in some detail later, BOTH Wicht, and seasong have tacked on the ingredient Nostalgia, which is a little disappointing to me. It seems easier to work this ingredient into a short adventure than a concept like A conflict of interest which you really have to nail down. But let’s get to the story judging.
Witch’s entries certainly get stronger as the contest goes on. This IRON DM judge is left to wonder if he is actually sand bagging. The strengths in this short adventure far outweigh the weaknesses. Let’s go over some of them:
The atmosphere – shockingly, Wicht far outstrips seasong in this ‘arena.’ In many places in this scenario, he reinforces the feel of the location. The attitudes of the NPCs, and even the timing of events drives home the gloomy, grim location that is Garno. And speaking of timing, I’m a big fan of “the back up plan” in case the PCs fail to bite, or miss in game plot hints. Wicht has devised an adventure which can go the investigative route, or can simply allow the escaped demon to set the wheels in motion. Good use of the ingredients - besides nostalgia, which feels like a tacked on attitude to the NPC Agris. There is the delightful keep, the clever, indirect use of the potion of glibness to weasel out of the Zone of Truth spells (since there is no spell detect lies), and the Book of Hushed Rumors as a plot advancement device - which kept me focused as a reader and DM on this story.
Interesting Note: Both writers included one extra tome which had little or nothing to do with the scenario – Wicht: The Book of Restless Dead, and Seasong: Remember. My guess it that with a longer timeframe to flesh out their submissions, these would’ve been more tightly incorporated…But I digress…
We do have a set of weaknesses/vagueness in this submission. How do I get into Wicht’s Keep? Maybe Agris will tell me? Awww…he’s dead. And I would have preferred Wicht to flesh out how to gather info from the NPC in more detail if they chose not to go the combat route. Witch wisely cuts of the direct divination angle, but most DMs reward parties for not always being hack and slash, and here we have a good opportunity. Another flaw I felt present in Wicht’s entry was timing of some events. What happens if the PCs encounter Targio in the Keep? Unless the adventure stays VERY scripted (which is fine, but let me know up front), there is the significant possibility that the PCs will bypass the demon, and head into the keep, first. And although I love Witch’s Keep as a story element. The combination of pissed guards, AND Stone and Clay golems that attack on sight, may leave the PCs too weakened to resolve the final fight scene between the Ogre Champions, the Tentacles, AND The mad cleric. I’d like to see some detail added as far as reigning in the encounters. This is an important factor in timing-based adventures.
Talking about adventure resolution gets me thinking more about seasong’s entry. So let’s pick apart the good, the bad, and the ugly in our rising star of IRON DM competition.
I am going to work backwards through seasong’s submission, because I talk about what’s best, first – and his best stuff comes at the end, rather than the beginning. More specifically: the Twists. Use of a second (or third, or fourth) layer to this relativly short scenario really adds to the meat I have become used to in a seasong entry. While we all can agree that Baron Malsteffan is the villain we love to hate – it’s often better to hate him, then like him, and maybe even hate him again later. Twists gives us these options. Then the image of 1/12 size ogres sneaking out late at night to terrorize the local town is so amusingly fascinating, I immediately went out and scripted a mini adventure on my own, utilizing the concept. Other positives: The potion of glibness in a glass is a great, slick, way for the Baron to get away with (dare I cliché?) murder. Although I like Witch’s indirect/defensive use of the potion better – I like seasong’s FLAIR better.
So what’s missing? The entry is missing some of seasong’s usual strong points, namely; hooks. If the Book of Hushed Rumors is to be introduced to the party earlier in the campaign – you are betting A LOT that they will check with the book while in the Baron’s lands. Even worse, depending on what else they are involved in, an entry in red may not interest them. Worse still, some of the other hooks are dependent on reading and having interest in the entry, so if ‘A’ does not lead to ‘B,’ you can’t get to ‘C.’ I have two major problems with the adventure (the bad, and the ugly?). Given the spell that seasong detailed – there is a WILL save involved in the shrinking. Since one or more of the PCs are likely to try to resist the spell and attack the Baron, we have an implicit story problem, since we have to make the Baron strong enough to take on the 1-3 party members, or weak enough that one wonders if the PCs will just take him out from the start. The other is spell based again. Last time seasong failed to detail Divination precautions. This time he fails to account for Dimension Door/ Teleport. In Wicht’s adventure, the PCs want to be in the keep, in seasong’s they don’t - which means that seasong must go out of his way to prevent escape, and he misses the boat (a little). This really forces us to use one or more of the ‘Twists” section – and hey – some of those twists are fantastic – but then they shouldn’t really be in an ‘extra’s’ section, but included in the main adventure.
By a larger margin than I expected at this stage in the competition, I award this round to WICHT. I feel I must mention the bad timing of seasong’s cold. However, for a first time IRON DM competitor, seasong availed himself very well indeed.
Expositions! I demand expositions!
Just a quick reminder: Use of the ingredients is one of the key elements in winning a round. Not the only element, but key. In this round, explained in some detail later, BOTH Wicht, and seasong have tacked on the ingredient Nostalgia, which is a little disappointing to me. It seems easier to work this ingredient into a short adventure than a concept like A conflict of interest which you really have to nail down. But let’s get to the story judging.
Witch’s entries certainly get stronger as the contest goes on. This IRON DM judge is left to wonder if he is actually sand bagging. The strengths in this short adventure far outweigh the weaknesses. Let’s go over some of them:
The atmosphere – shockingly, Wicht far outstrips seasong in this ‘arena.’ In many places in this scenario, he reinforces the feel of the location. The attitudes of the NPCs, and even the timing of events drives home the gloomy, grim location that is Garno. And speaking of timing, I’m a big fan of “the back up plan” in case the PCs fail to bite, or miss in game plot hints. Wicht has devised an adventure which can go the investigative route, or can simply allow the escaped demon to set the wheels in motion. Good use of the ingredients - besides nostalgia, which feels like a tacked on attitude to the NPC Agris. There is the delightful keep, the clever, indirect use of the potion of glibness to weasel out of the Zone of Truth spells (since there is no spell detect lies), and the Book of Hushed Rumors as a plot advancement device - which kept me focused as a reader and DM on this story.
Interesting Note: Both writers included one extra tome which had little or nothing to do with the scenario – Wicht: The Book of Restless Dead, and Seasong: Remember. My guess it that with a longer timeframe to flesh out their submissions, these would’ve been more tightly incorporated…But I digress…
We do have a set of weaknesses/vagueness in this submission. How do I get into Wicht’s Keep? Maybe Agris will tell me? Awww…he’s dead. And I would have preferred Wicht to flesh out how to gather info from the NPC in more detail if they chose not to go the combat route. Witch wisely cuts of the direct divination angle, but most DMs reward parties for not always being hack and slash, and here we have a good opportunity. Another flaw I felt present in Wicht’s entry was timing of some events. What happens if the PCs encounter Targio in the Keep? Unless the adventure stays VERY scripted (which is fine, but let me know up front), there is the significant possibility that the PCs will bypass the demon, and head into the keep, first. And although I love Witch’s Keep as a story element. The combination of pissed guards, AND Stone and Clay golems that attack on sight, may leave the PCs too weakened to resolve the final fight scene between the Ogre Champions, the Tentacles, AND The mad cleric. I’d like to see some detail added as far as reigning in the encounters. This is an important factor in timing-based adventures.
Talking about adventure resolution gets me thinking more about seasong’s entry. So let’s pick apart the good, the bad, and the ugly in our rising star of IRON DM competition.
I am going to work backwards through seasong’s submission, because I talk about what’s best, first – and his best stuff comes at the end, rather than the beginning. More specifically: the Twists. Use of a second (or third, or fourth) layer to this relativly short scenario really adds to the meat I have become used to in a seasong entry. While we all can agree that Baron Malsteffan is the villain we love to hate – it’s often better to hate him, then like him, and maybe even hate him again later. Twists gives us these options. Then the image of 1/12 size ogres sneaking out late at night to terrorize the local town is so amusingly fascinating, I immediately went out and scripted a mini adventure on my own, utilizing the concept. Other positives: The potion of glibness in a glass is a great, slick, way for the Baron to get away with (dare I cliché?) murder. Although I like Witch’s indirect/defensive use of the potion better – I like seasong’s FLAIR better.
So what’s missing? The entry is missing some of seasong’s usual strong points, namely; hooks. If the Book of Hushed Rumors is to be introduced to the party earlier in the campaign – you are betting A LOT that they will check with the book while in the Baron’s lands. Even worse, depending on what else they are involved in, an entry in red may not interest them. Worse still, some of the other hooks are dependent on reading and having interest in the entry, so if ‘A’ does not lead to ‘B,’ you can’t get to ‘C.’ I have two major problems with the adventure (the bad, and the ugly?). Given the spell that seasong detailed – there is a WILL save involved in the shrinking. Since one or more of the PCs are likely to try to resist the spell and attack the Baron, we have an implicit story problem, since we have to make the Baron strong enough to take on the 1-3 party members, or weak enough that one wonders if the PCs will just take him out from the start. The other is spell based again. Last time seasong failed to detail Divination precautions. This time he fails to account for Dimension Door/ Teleport. In Wicht’s adventure, the PCs want to be in the keep, in seasong’s they don’t - which means that seasong must go out of his way to prevent escape, and he misses the boat (a little). This really forces us to use one or more of the ‘Twists” section – and hey – some of those twists are fantastic – but then they shouldn’t really be in an ‘extra’s’ section, but included in the main adventure.
By a larger margin than I expected at this stage in the competition, I award this round to WICHT. I feel I must mention the bad timing of seasong’s cold. However, for a first time IRON DM competitor, seasong availed himself very well indeed.
Expositions! I demand expositions!
Last edited:
seasong
First Post
I'm a bit loopy on drugs right now , but I'll try to render some exposition.
Firstly, I agree with the judgement. My entry was well below what I consider my own par, and I'm pretty disappointed in it.
Regarding hooks, I'm an idiot. I had a bunch of hooks useful for it, but I usually write the hooks last, so I can come at the adventure from a multitude of approaches. At the point where I would have been writing my Hook #1, Hook #2, etc., I was posting the submission and going to bed. Here's what it would have been (short form - I'm pretty doped):
Regarding the Shrink Person spell: Meant to do this, looks like I forgot. The magic item that has the spell has a prerequisite does NOT allow a Will save. But it doesn't matter - there'd always be some spell resistant PC to muck things up.
For Dimension Door/Teleport, on the other hand, I'm quite happy with things the way they are... remember, the PCs will remain at the 1/12th scale, so just leaving the keep isn't enough. They don't have to remain in the keep for that. The only way to return to normal size is to use the password. Although, what I did forget, was Dispel Magic and similar things. Damn.
Maybe I should make it a shrinking sub-dimension with animated doubles in the miniature keep! That would fix most of the spell problems here. Kinda cheesy though.
On to some other things you were kind enough NOT to say:
1. Baron Malsteffan was simply not strong enough a character for me to be happy with. I would have liked to make him more compelling - the wine glass of glibness was the place where I really started to channel him, and I should have gone back and done more work.
2. Had I my druthers, I'd go with the doppleganger twist as the main. The 'flair' you mentioned would have gone very well with a wizard-levelled doppleganger, and I could have made him a truly lovely villain.
3. I would have preferred to put more in about the process of getting out of the keep. I kind of limped on that one.
, but I'll try to render some exposition.Firstly, I agree with the judgement. My entry was well below what I consider my own par, and I'm pretty disappointed in it.
Regarding hooks, I'm an idiot. I had a bunch of hooks useful for it, but I usually write the hooks last, so I can come at the adventure from a multitude of approaches. At the point where I would have been writing my Hook #1, Hook #2, etc., I was posting the submission and going to bed. Here's what it would have been (short form - I'm pretty doped):
Hook #1: Curiosity: The PCs are checking the Tome of Hushed Rumors (Forget), and stumble across the red-inked rumor. Curiousity ensues.
Hook #2: Oh Help Me Sir!: Peasants may approach the PCs to help them. They have dark suspicions about the Baron, and will pay what they can to hire the PCs. (You'll notice I put this in the wrong section entirely - silly me).
Hook #3: Greed: The Baron is well known for having a lot of really cool stuff, from Daern's Instant Fortress to Urgid's Trapping Box to Whitefeather's Mechanical Songbird. The adventure could easily be turned into a "thieves who robbed a wizard, are shrunk, and tossed into the keep" one... heck, the ogres could be prisoners.
Hook #4: Baron's Greed: The PCs are looking for a buyer for this stupid book the DM loaded them with, and the Baron just happens to be one such. Of course, he's a little low on cash this month, so he'll just pop the PCs into the keep
Regarding the Shrink Person spell: Meant to do this, looks like I forgot. The magic item that has the spell has a prerequisite does NOT allow a Will save. But it doesn't matter - there'd always be some spell resistant PC to muck things up
.For Dimension Door/Teleport, on the other hand, I'm quite happy with things the way they are... remember, the PCs will remain at the 1/12th scale, so just leaving the keep isn't enough. They don't have to remain in the keep for that. The only way to return to normal size is to use the password. Although, what I did forget, was Dispel Magic and similar things. Damn.
Maybe I should make it a shrinking sub-dimension with animated doubles in the miniature keep! That would fix most of the spell problems here. Kinda cheesy though
.On to some other things you were kind enough NOT to say:
1. Baron Malsteffan was simply not strong enough a character for me to be happy with. I would have liked to make him more compelling - the wine glass of glibness was the place where I really started to channel him, and I should have gone back and done more work.
2. Had I my druthers, I'd go with the doppleganger twist as the main. The 'flair' you mentioned would have gone very well with a wizard-levelled doppleganger, and I could have made him a truly lovely villain.
3. I would have preferred to put more in about the process of getting out of the keep. I kind of limped on that one.
Wicht
Hero
Re: R3: Wicht vs Seasong
This just goes to show that one never can tell. I thought this was the weakest of my three entries thus far.
Note: I actually thought my first was quite a success but that is perhaps because I wrote it with an unusual goal in mind. I started out by asking myself, "What would Willie Walsh do with these ingredients," and proceeded to write what I considered a Walshish type adventure. The last two entries more closely fit my actual DMing style.
As to thoughts on this submission:
The nostalgia was present in two places. One was, as noted, the attitude of Agris. But another was in the general attitude of the people in the arena who felt the arena was past its prime. I chose to use nostalgia as part of the mood and not as a motivating factor. Part of the mood was thus decay, of which nostalgia becomes a symptom.
I was rushed this morning and not being sure I would be home later to tighten up the submission I sent it in as was. One thing I immediatelly realized was a failure to adequately explain the miniature keep. A spoken word would allow entry and exit to it and it functioned as a pocket dimension in the form of a keep. The word could be gleaned from Agris, who, though dead,yet spoke (speak with dead spell would work). Clues in his apartment would also point to the actual word which was "Chains." The word could also be worked into prior conversations with Agris so the PCs might not be totally in the dark.
In the keep, clever PCs would negotiate rather than fight and at level 10, even some of the golems might, if not encountered in huge numbers, not completely drain the party. Yet a party that foolishly battles and drains their own resources will likely lose in the final fight it is true.
One other thing I considered this morning but did not have time to address was the issue of the PCs meeting Targio in the keep. In such a case, it might be interesting to have Targio use one of the other evil artifacts in the keep to slow the PCs down before escaping. The PCs would then still have to figure out what was stolen and why.
As I noted in the submission, I think the idea needs a lot more actual flesh on it such as red herrings and secondary characters. Nevertheless I am glad the good judge liked it so well and I am delighted to have the opportunity to face Vaxalon on Monday.
incognito said:
This just goes to show that one never can tell. I thought this was the weakest of my three entries thus far.
Note: I actually thought my first was quite a success but that is perhaps because I wrote it with an unusual goal in mind. I started out by asking myself, "What would Willie Walsh do with these ingredients," and proceeded to write what I considered a Walshish type adventure. The last two entries more closely fit my actual DMing style.
As to thoughts on this submission:
The nostalgia was present in two places. One was, as noted, the attitude of Agris. But another was in the general attitude of the people in the arena who felt the arena was past its prime. I chose to use nostalgia as part of the mood and not as a motivating factor. Part of the mood was thus decay, of which nostalgia becomes a symptom.
I was rushed this morning and not being sure I would be home later to tighten up the submission I sent it in as was. One thing I immediatelly realized was a failure to adequately explain the miniature keep. A spoken word would allow entry and exit to it and it functioned as a pocket dimension in the form of a keep. The word could be gleaned from Agris, who, though dead,yet spoke (speak with dead spell would work). Clues in his apartment would also point to the actual word which was "Chains." The word could also be worked into prior conversations with Agris so the PCs might not be totally in the dark.
In the keep, clever PCs would negotiate rather than fight and at level 10, even some of the golems might, if not encountered in huge numbers, not completely drain the party. Yet a party that foolishly battles and drains their own resources will likely lose in the final fight it is true.
One other thing I considered this morning but did not have time to address was the issue of the PCs meeting Targio in the keep. In such a case, it might be interesting to have Targio use one of the other evil artifacts in the keep to slow the PCs down before escaping. The PCs would then still have to figure out what was stolen and why.
As I noted in the submission, I think the idea needs a lot more actual flesh on it such as red herrings and secondary characters. Nevertheless I am glad the good judge liked it so well and I am delighted to have the opportunity to face Vaxalon on Monday.
seasong
First Post
Wicht, I also wanted to offer my congratulations to you. You've been strong this whole competition, and I've enjoyed everything you've dished up for us.
And as the resident "rising star", I hope to face you again in the future, only as a veteran, and with a more winning, less losing.
And as the resident "rising star", I hope to face you again in the future, only as a veteran, and with a more winning, less losing
.
seasong
First Post
Well, honestly, I think they've already picked... and I'm pretty young to the boards, still, for them to choose me over someone with more history.Tuerny said:Hopefully you will still make the Rat Bastard DM's Club!
Wicht, on the other hand, they have no excuse not to invite
.
seasong
First Post
They were waiting for the Iron DM game to go through it's paces so they could see us all in action, and that has happened - really, the final round is less interesting for that purpose than the first two rounds. And Lordnightshade did say this:
They may be holding out a fourth chair just in case, but they've had about a week to look over the Iron DMs and other posters, and plenty of data provided to them. If I had to guess, I'd say Wicht and Angelsboi (based on past stuff, since I never saw his interview).
But don't take my word for it. I'm just guessing.
Also, the only posters in the Rat Bastard thread right now are people submitting interviews, which is a shift from the first few days, when Rat Bastards were posting individual responses.
They may be holding out a fourth chair just in case, but they've had about a week to look over the Iron DMs and other posters, and plenty of data provided to them. If I had to guess, I'd say Wicht and Angelsboi (based on past stuff, since I never saw his interview).
But don't take my word for it. I'm just guessing
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