Is D&D too complicated?

[Saeviomagy]

Well that makes me spit my milk all over my monitor thank you very much, LOL. Honestly I remember being able to create NASTY NPCs ont he fly in 1e and even 2e (were NWPs for NPCs important at all? LOL) with minimum time. I can't do that in 3e which bugs the pee out of me, but I like the level of detail at the same time... weird.

The key to playing 1e and 2e was to not go looking for rules you thought you could wing. Because chances are that whatever you were looking for was either
a) Not there
b) There three times and different each time.

The key to 3e is to not go looking for rules that people know, and to look up rules that noone knows. Chances are there will be someone in the group who knows each rule, and running with what they remember is a great way to keep the game moving.

The key with either one is to not get bogged down about who's right on their rules interpretation/invention. Pick the best sounding one and run with it, and look it up properly later. Or not if you're playing 1e/2e.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Speaking from experience, there are many games more complicated than D20. My personal fave, HERO, is pretty darn complex. Then there's Rolemaster (AKA Rollmaster).

On the other hand, SJG/Metagames once had an RPG line called Melee/Wizard/In the Labyryinth. Only 3 stats- pick a race, a weapon, go adventuring in 10 minutes. Get entire party killed. Adventure again 7 minutes later.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see a D20 Lite, but with a little work, a decent DM could initiate a complete novice in D20 with minimal fuss. I've done so in the recent past. You assist the player in creating the PC they envision, and have experienced players in the group to help the noob get his/her feet wet. Be patient. Don't concentrate on the rules as much as the feel of the game.

 

[DragonLancer]

I find that the only part of the 3rd ed game that is complicated is the combat system unless you are playing with miniatures. Its all 5' steps, move actions, full attacks, AoO's... etc, which is easier to get your head around with mini's. But if you don't use them, it can make combat tougher to get your head around and remember it all.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It isn't that they are too complicated, its that they are on a quixotic quest to be perfect and handle everything and it makes the rules verbose and pedantic.

For my money, this is the nub of the issue. The basic premise of the d20 system is laudably simple, but the actual game isn't for the very reason outlined above.

To take a simple comparison, 2nd edition Runequest by Chaosium c1977 Had a simple and cohesive system which while more complex than D&D of that era added welcome aspects of "realism" to the game, all without bogging anything down. They didn't try to lock down every rule for every circumstance, but the basic general rules were incredibly easy to extrapolate to new circumstances.

Cheers

 

[WCrawford]

I'm of the opinion that the rules are probably a bit too simplistic. I never saw the point in 'reducing the barrier' to the average person, as the average person isn't going to play the game anyway.

Besides, as I look around the USA, I've determined that the 'average person' is a frickin' moron. Most RPG players are so much better than the 'average person' (intellectually) and I'd rather associate with them than the 'average person'.

 

[3catcircus]

I don't find it too complicated at all. I can whip up a character now in less than a half hour. The hardest part is choosing the feats. I've used a few software programs for character creation, but I like the old fashioned way best. Some of my group use a program, but it's just not my thing. The rules can be daunting for a beginner, sure. But the d20 system streamlines the actual playing mechanics so much that some folks I know play now when they before they refused, because they found previous editions confusing.

But do you use every available WoTC source, or just the core rulebooks? *Everything* about 3rd edition started out as a great idea that has been perverted and convoluted - both by WoTC and by 3rd parties. Take a look at the D&D Rules Tracker (if it is still available) - I have a copy that I've been faithfully updating as new source material becomes available. Just as an example - all of the official WoTC publications (Core and FR), not including any web enhancements, Savage Species or Ghostwalk, and including the old Psionics Book but not the new one (I don't have it yet) - there are 2328 feats. Let me reiterate - 2328 feats Now, I have to caveat that by stating that I haven't done any consolidation (i.e. some of those feats are reprinted through multiple books, and some are superceded by later books.) The PHB alone has roughly 110 feats. While actually creating a character may only take you 1/2 hour, how long do you spend *deciding* what choices you want to take?

 

[diaglo]

Me too. I would roll my d20, add my bonus, and look at the DM. "Did I hit?"

still works the same in the newer editions. you still have to ask the DM if you hit.

the only reason in older editions you didn't know if you hit was... Dex or Magic or unknown bonus that the opponent may of had... thus altering his AC... still the same way in the newer editions.

 

[Chacal]

It isn't that they are too complicated, its that they are on a quixotic quest to be perfect and handle everything and it makes the rules verbose and pedantic.

I agree.
The second problem is that designing an incremental (and consistent) way to learn the game while playing is quite a difficult task.

Now the burden is on the DM's shoulders.
In the first games we played, we didn't try disarms, sunders, even flanking at first, and AoO would happen only for some cases.

Having guidelines on what's needed and what can be introduced later is important for the new DM


Chacal

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Computer RPGs (many times) have more than 970+ pages of rules. All the rules aren't presented when you first start the game. Case in Point: Neverwinter Nights. It's a great PC game that's based largely on 3.0 rules. The manuals are e and they don't even explain spell effects. You are expected to buy the Bradygames manual if you want to know the numbers.
I think this is where the boxed set comes it. It spoon feeds you concepts, not really rules, so that you may play the game. We have many different modifiers to your d20 attack roll, but only one concept. d20 + modifiers Vs. AC = success/failure.
WOTC's minis are contributing to getting people into the hobby. Who hasn't been inspired by a well crafted mini? I know of at least two young men that thought minis were cool beans, and then they found out that a whole (new and unusual) game was attached to them.

I think this is a decent point. Most computer games these days let have in their manuals on about page 3 or 4, after the installation instructions, a bit about "For those of you who don't like to ready manuals, click the Tutorial Mission to learn the basics of the game. I think there are merits to an introductory boxed set, but maybe what we really need (and perhaps this is the intention of the boxed set) is a tutorial game.

BTW, nice icon Madhatter...

 

[Torm]

*raises hand*

Actually, there's me.

Yer lyin'! Its plain to see to anybody here that you obviously went back in time and taught yourself!

Now STOP that!