Is D&D too complicated?

[Torm]

D02 is compliated and simplest at the same time for not plaing newbies. My hat of D02 know no limit!

There, I believe I have now used it correctly.

Seriously, though, I don't believe I know anyone who came to play RPGs or other similarly detailed wargames without being "brought into the fold" by someone else. I had D&D and FASA Star Trek gaming materials and West End Games' Star Wars stuff LONG before I ever played anything like that - to me, by myself and not having played them before, they were just neat books I had found at yard sales or been given by relatives who thought that just because I liked Star Wars, I would know what to do with them. And I've brought other people into the gaming community that certainly would never have bought a D&D book if they hadn't been taught the game FIRST.

I find it hard to believe anyone, on their own, would buy a D&D starter pack first and get into the gaming community that way. At least, it would seem to me that it would be RARE.

 

[Krieg]

A streamlined/simplified "entry" D20 product is a wondeful idea.

Will it make a huge impact bringing in "new blood"? Probably not. (See Torm's last paragraph above.)

More like a townie that knows too many people with similiar habits as the college folk. Also that said people are often suppliers TO said college people. So yeah I'm pretty much against college towns.

LOL

FYI my mom is a Mountaineer alum. Luckily my grandfather and grandmother fled north to Buckeyeland while she was in college and she followed upon graduation.

(PS- On a totally unrelated but weird tangent, I have a great uncle who swears on his life that he saw the Mothman in '66!)

 

[kamosa]

It isn't that they are too complicated, its that they are on a quixotic quest to be perfect and handle everything and it makes the rules verbose and pedantic.

At some level more detail becomes less helpful. When I have to keep track of 8 billion things just to play one monster against one PC, we've crossed the state line on being less helpful. Esentially they've Gurpsfied the rules.

One of the problems I always had with GURPS was that they would take simple concepts and make them horribly convoluted. So, in the end, you spend less time playing and more time exercising the rules. It's one of the main reasons D&D succeeded and so many "perfect & percise" roleplaying systems are in the "Take me for free" bin at the FLGS. In D&D you had a streamlined system that could quickly determine combat, quickly create characters and the GM could quickly create the bad guys. Those days have been drug out into the street and shot dead.

Now it takes me hours to figure out all the feats, skills, exact stats, etc for every monster (lord knows you can't be caught without knowing the Wisdom bonus for a slug or it will drag the game to a halt the first time someone casts a spell at it). The only saving grace is that the party takes 3 times longer to do anything in 3E, so I have to prep less material per session. As a result the games I've played in have had a much greater percentage chance of being boring as heck. Gee, we spent 3 hours figuring out whether or not the Paladin could actually climb the rope while in plate armor after getting hit by the shadow, what a fun time...

HMMMMM, how did I get off on that rant. Anyway, I don't think it's the complication that keeps people out. It's the size of the rules and their ability to always be in the way of having a good time.

 

[JimAde]

That page count (970+): I assume that's the core books. But how much of that is actual rules? The Monster Manual has very few rules. Just a big list of monsters. The Player's Handbook is IIRC about half spell list. Plus there's the big list of feats and big list of equipment. Not many actual rules. Even the DMG has a lot of examples, explanation and a huge section of magic items.

As a new player, the only rules you have to know are the ones that apply to your character: Combat mechanics, spell casting (if you're a caster), how to do saves, and maybe the weight and movement rules if you care. Plus anything that's particular to your class(es).

The problem may be that it LOOKS like you have to know 1000 pages of rules to play. That's where a boxed set comes in handy.

 

[Nightfall]

Considering the weird stuff that goes on in this state (Charlie Manson being raised here, the Mothman, our own UFO cults, the "mountain" militias and of course the vast lots of car parts that people use to get money) I'm not suprised.

I have nothing against WVU personally...just in terms of an RPG town, there's a lot left to be desired.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

What Ryan says is the books are too much for beginners.

Sales right now are largely driven by long term players, not beginners. I don't think it's too complicated for those who play it regularly. Just those who are not familiar with the hobby.

It may not be too complicated to learn eventually, but it also isn't easy. Every single group I've played with has disagreed on one or more significant rules (What exactly do SR and DR affect? What happens when a creature grapples? How does a particular feat work?) And let's not even start in on things like alter self, polymorph, and a druid's wildshape ability...

IMO, the designers of this edition tried to anticipate all the situations/circumstances that could come up in play, then crafted rules for them using a few basic core concepts. The fact that the core concepts are pretty simple doesn't stop the game from being awfully heavy on rules. Add in the mostly subtle changes in 3.5, and it's impossible (for me, at least) to play a game without constantly referencing the rules, or ignoring them altogether - in which case, they must not be terribly important, so why have them?

Sorry to rant, but this thread has touched on my only significant disappointment with 3E - it's too much WORK to learn how to PLAY.

 

[MerricB]

Conversely, you have people snobby about the games they play. "I'm not going to play D&D - it's a nerd game!"

I do feel that D&D needs a Basic Game, and possibly even an Intermediate game as well - consider how Magic: the Gathering does it.

It has a Starter Set, which just teaches you the rules with a limited set of rules.

It has the Core Set (8th Edition, "Advanced" level), which gives you much more variety, but leaves out a lot of the more troubling mechanics and concepts (like Trample and Protection from X).

It has the Expert Sets: Mirrodin, Darksteel, etc., which give you everything.

Although there is a comparison with the Stage I, Stage II and Stage III ideas from the GAMA presentation (see links below), a pertinent question is whether or not Stage II is too much of a step upwards.

Personally, I don't think it is so much the level of rules in the Core Books that is a problem, but the number of options being overwhelming.

Links to the different Stages of D&D:
Stage I: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80863
Stage II: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80868
Stage III: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80862

Cheers!

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

I don't find it too complicated at all. I can whip up a character now in less than a half hour. The hardest part is choosing the feats. I've used a few software programs for character creation, but I like the old fashioned way best. Some of my group use a program, but it's just not my thing. The rules can be daunting for a beginner, sure. But the d20 system streamlines the actual playing mechanics so much that some folks I know play now when they before they refused, because they found previous editions confusing.

 

[dren]

I don't think the rules are what makes or break players getting into the hobby. For the most part players only need to buy the one book (obviously the players handbook) to play the game, everything else is really at the whim of the storyteller.

Sure, there are lots and lots and lots of supplemenmtal books a player can buy, but ultimately that is for more seasoned players. To get them hooked they need 1. the PhB; 2. a good DM; 3. a place to play...everything else is gravy.

The rules aren't too complicated, they are extremely simple. Roll a d20; the higher you roll the better. 3/6 basic rules (to hit, saves, and skills) are based on rolling the one dice. Damage, spells and feats add a little more flavour, but can easily be described so players may not have them memorized but understand them. If you have a DM and one good player, you can learn the basics in a half hour to an hour. Thousands of us learned this way... thousands more will too.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Ah, for the complexity of 1st/2nd edition. Remember, THAC0 kept the riff-raff out!