D&D 4E Is there any D&D 4th computer game?

[keterys]

It is very true as soon as things like flanking positons or just positions the enemy can't get out without OA or forced movement into zones or forced movement into hindering terrain or forced movement to activate class features (e.g. prime shot) are concerned .

At the end of the day, your concerns are fairly trivial to address for a real time application. You may have an unreasonable attachment to a one and true and only way that D&D 4e may be played or executed, but that doesn't make it universally true for all people.

For example, there are groups where people agonize over movement and position and forced movement, and make a decision, then go back on it, and have people point out stuff, and advise them, etc... and there are other groups where people take 5 second turns and rapidly execute things, and if they don't specify someone just does the forced movement and moves on. And that's tabletop.

The problems you consider insurmountable here are ones that _have already been solved_ in prior computer games. They're easy to deal with. For some people they'll even deepen the immersion that having to designate and fiddle with squares would remove. For others, they'll curse when they don't make the right movement or press to fling the baddie into the fire and instead they hit the wall... but oddly enough, there are literally hundreds of games out there with forced movement of one kind or another, and people cope with not picking exact squares.

And realtimeactioncombat is limiting your character's abilities unaturally to match the restriction of it's human players. My epic level avatar of war won't miss to use his immediates just because his player is to slow to push the buttong within the 1.5s timeframe

They're already limited by players who aren't paying attention or forget they have abilities.

And for me it's just the opposite, I wouldn't spend money on the RT variant

Hopefully such a game would have a larger audience of potential buyers than just you. Much like hopefully a turn-based game would have a larger audience than just Garthanos.

Since the two of you have already spoken up for the differing viewpoints, I suspect there _is_ such an audience.

 

[bonus]

Here's the thing though, if you're making a real time combat game, why use the D&D ruleset at all, given that it's turn-based. Why not just some other combat system that's made for real time computer simulated combat instead of shoehorning a turn-based system into a real time one.

 

[keterys]

Because they want to leverage the D&D fanbase and IP.

I mean, there are an awful lot of people who played all of the previous games, and an awful lot of people who read whatever the latest Drizzt or Dragonlance or whatever book.

Warhammer miniatures is a turn-based game. That didn't stop a company called Blizzard from trying to make a game based on it, and then turning that work into an enter franchise 'Warcraft' that has since gone on to make _billions_ of dollars.

At the end of the day, turn-based is a practical requirement for any tabletop play at all. We just can't process things fast enough to do any other way. Computers are not so bound, so you then are allowed to consider more options. Sometimes those options are good, sometimes they're not. For a single player game, whether you're controlling a party or not, turn-based is a good method. For team-based games, turn-based is generally _not_ a good method but it's possible. For competitive games or many-playered but not necessarily connected by a party games, turn-based is near death of product unless it's a web-based game, and even then...

If you've seen how badly play by post and similar games do at actually finishing plots and such you'll understand some of the problems there when you're dealing with multiplayer and turn-based.

So, yes, I'd like a ToEE style game where I get to control everything in precise tactical detail. I'd also like a multiplayer game I can play with my friends - it should probably be real time, but I'd do both ways. Frankly, I'd also be happy to try an MMO that was based on 4e rules.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It might be hard to create the full tactical precision of D&D 4 combat in real time games. But it would certainly be possible to create the game in a way to just excise all the highly precision stuff and instead focus more on the general rules layout. The "math" works, wether everyone can choose between pushing an opponent 3 squares diagonallly or just 1 square straight this turn. If terrain is an issue it wouldn't be that hard to create certain "triggers" that make a Thunderwave push an enemy in the firepit if it fits from movement and just do the standard full [WIS] squares if nothing exciting is going on. There might be even visual cues indicating it when you select the area you want to thunderwave, like outlining creatures and special terrain caught in the effect.

It is okay if a real time game loses a little control in exchange for a more fast paced game. It's not what I prefer, I would love a ToEE like turn-based version. But it's not an absolut must to gain benefits of D&D IP or even the general rules layout.

 

[bonus]

Because they want to leverage the D&D fanbase and IP.

Good point.

So yeah, I'd welcome any kind of D&D CRPG, whether it's turn-based or real time (although I'd prefer the former). Let's just hope someone makes it and that the game is good.

 

[abyssaldeath]

Good point.

So yeah, I'd welcome any kind of D&D CRPG, whether it's turn-based or real time (although I'd prefer the former). Let's just hope someone makes it and that the game is good.

Yep, that my only requirement. Hell, I'll probably buy it even if it's not good. I'm a DnD whore.

 

[kolpo]

I don't think that it is true that turn base games are completely outdated. The civilization4 and it's expansions are examples of turn based games that sold very well. The galactic civilization series also sold far more then they themself predicted, they certainly did break even.In the fantasy genre is the HOMM a serie that is doing well for a long time.

But there is one thing I agree with, the multiplayer of turn based games is quite never popular. Even the very good game designers of firaxis(makers of civ4) where unable to make turn based multiplayer popular, this while they clearly spend a lot of resources in trying to make it good. All types of solutions have been tried, but none made turn based muliplayer really popular.

D&d4 is in my view far more based on turns and on the sequence people act then any other edition. If for example 2 players come after each other in the initiative order, can the first try to place the monster in a position that shall cause the second player to do more damage(like ensuring that the warlock is the closed to the monster, but not so close that he provoces opportunity attacks). In real time could the monster have already moved to the warlock, so he provoces attacks of oppoturnity before he uses his power.

I think they can best release at least 2 D&D based games. One turn based game that closely follows the D&D4 rules and is focused on single player. Players are given a toolset that allows them to make there own missions(which shouldn't be that hard in a tileset based game). Maybe can there be also the option for a DM to guide a mission with a small group of players. Because this is a turn based game are NWN like worlds with more then 64 players out of question, nobody shall have the patience to wait 64 turns + all monster turns.

Second an NWN like real time D&D4 game. Made by a developer who is skilled enough to find a way to make a real time D&D4 that still feels and plays like D&D4 and that is still tactical(but I'm not sure if that is possible at all, this suggestion is for in case it is possible). This game would come with NWN like multiplayer and campaign/world building capabilities.

 

[Tai]

I've been watching this thread for a while, so I should probably chime in with my thoughts.

Firstly, they certainly could make a realtime game based on D&D 4th, but in order to do so, they'd basically have to throw all the rules out and start again. Realtime has different basic mechanics to turn-based, particularly when it comes to the player interface. What you'd end up with is a game that uses some powers that have the same names, and have broadly similar effects, but that will not be the same game. Personally, I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing: take a look at KoToR, or the NWN series. The rules have been significantly altered, and that was only 3rd/SWd20, a far less tactically complex system (or at least one that used the battlemat a lot less)... Not to mention that the games were still fundamentally turn-based. Pausable realtime is just a prettier version of turn-based, especially when you set the game to pause after every combat round. I'm not saying that it's not practical to make a realtime D&D 4th game - just don't expect it to look or play much like D&D 4th.

 

[keterys]

Neverwinter Nights was extraordinarily recognizable as D&D 3rd edition. So is D&D Online and they made tremendous changes to support their platform. Far more than necessary, certainly, but I still know one person who won't play it not because of the gameplay but because it's too 3rd edition for him. And, if you haven't played, the changes really are massive.

3rd edition was also not a far less tactically complex system than 4th. 1st and 2nd edition were, of course, and games like Icewind Dale and Baldur's Gate were pretty popular and had everyone acting at once. Yes, you could pause, but they weren't actually turn-based - you couldn't take your action and assume the enemy would stay where it was, you couldn't take one character's action to setup another who went afterwards, or delay in initiative. It all happened at once. That's real time. A pause button is in a lot of first person shooters, too

4th edition has a lot less buttons, a lot less buffing, and a lot less triggers than previous editions for many classes. That would make it easier to handle as a computer game from an interface standpoint.

Forced movement and brief status effects work well on a computer. You can use concepts like holding down an attack for a certain amount of time to set how far you do the forced movement or pressing a number. Could also just use a mouseclick interface where you click where you want to force someone to - all kinds of possible solutions.

Immediate interrupts could be toggled on and off in advance, reactions within 3 seconds of their triggers. It's not 100% perfect, but it's more than recognizable.

I will admit - people might raise a stink if they change fireballs from cubes into spheres, since the whole diagonals are equal thing was done to make tabletop play faster so a CRPG would probably ditch that.

 

[Tai]

3rd had lots of rules, certainly, but it didn't have the fine table control that 4th does, and it certainly didn't have as many interrupts or reactions as 4th does - and those are the ones that will be difficult. In fact, aside from the ridiculous spell lists (which most CRPGs trimmed down significantly), most characters didn't really have a lot of options each combat round. The general action a martial character will take in NWN 2 is "hit the guy in the face", with a few special moves that do more damage, and a pile of buffs you have to use every time you rest. In 4th, a 16th level character has at least 14 abilities to choose from, not counting powers from class features, feats, races etc. Choosing from a power list that extensive in realtime isn't very practical, so you'd have to prune that down a bit. In order to make the game even remotely accessible to non P&P players, you'd also have to reduce the level of choice, and rebalance the powers to take into account the reduced tactical complexity of realtime combat without squares... And while you could do all that, why would you? You could just as easily make a new system and use the same names for stuff - that's all you're likely to end up with if you try and convert a battlemap-heavy, turn-based combat game into a realtime game without squares.