Is this fair? -- your personal opinion

[Raven Crowking]

And while your desire for there to be an objective intrinsic fair value is admirable, I think it is an unreachable goal, especially with the approach you are taking. For example, you were appalled by the idea that a trap should not include creative thought. This is an example of your playstyle showing bias in your results.

That "a trap should not include creative thought" in order to be determined fair is, indeed, appalling. Please note, however, that this is not the same as claiming that a trap must include creative thought to be either fair or fun.

Of course, my view in general is that something does not need to fall within the lowest common denominator to be fair, so that a trap might be fair even though it is too clever for me in particular. YMMV, and obviously does.

As an aside, I brought up this thread to my 15-year-old son last night. I used the wording of the OP. He's played some D&D with others, but most of his experience comes from my home campaign (and you can read what I've managed to write of the campaign logs by following the link in my sig). I've never used a trapped lever, and, in fact, seldom use traps. Certainly I have never used a trap as fiendish as the one in the OP.

I got no farther than mentioning the lever when he stated that it was probably trapped.

Asked why, his answer was "It's obvious. It's an obvious set-up."

RC

P.S.: I think Storm Raven's analysis is fairly accurate. Yes, the trap is fair. No, the trap would not be fun for most players.

 

[Raven Crowking]

BTW, ThirdWizard, just to be clear, is the following a true statement?

If something is unfair, then using it would also be unfair

 

[Celtavian]

re

Never done this as a DM. There is no point to setting up a trap like this. I wouldn't even play with a DM who used traps like this.

 

[ThirdWizard]

That "a trap should not include creative thought" in order to be determined fair is, indeed, appalling. Please note, however, that this is not the same as claiming that a trap must include creative thought to be either fair or fun.

Of course not. But, how about the reverse? If it requires creative thought, then it isn't objectively fair? If you dismiss this out of hand, then you are not being objective, and your own playstyle is interfering with your definition of fairness.

Of course, my view in general is that something does not need to fall within the lowest common denominator to be fair, so that a trap might be fair even though it is too clever for me in particular. YMMV, and obviously does.

I don't understand. Are you saying that in a group composed of 100 IQ people, it is fair to require them to have 120 IQs or die? That's fair?

What, exactly, will your definition of fair be useful for, if it isn't useful for the majority of the D&D playing population? How can something be unfair for the majority of the D&D playing population but still be objectively fair? Are you going to have to add a note for your "objective" fairness standard that says that you have to have an IQ of at least 120 for it to apply to them?

EDIT: Here's an example.

Say Person A is designing the standards that will be used in the fairness of testing 2nd grade students. Person A believes adamantly that it is fair for there to be trick questions on tests. He believes that trick questions are some of the best way to make sure the person knows the material well. A collegue, Person B, thinks that trick questions are bad, and that 2nd graders probably don't have the capacity to understand the concepts of trick questions.

Would it be prudent for Person A to:

1) Decide that he is right, and that trick questions are fair. The ability of 2nd graders to answer trick questions isn't of consequence.

2) Decide that he is right, and that trick questions are intrisinctly fair. 2nd graders should be abe to answer trick questions well enough for it to be fair, because trick questions are intrisinctly fair.

3) Do studies on whether or not 2nd graders are capable of answering trick questions with enough ability for these questions to be deemed fair.

I got no farther than mentioning the lever when he stated that it was probably trapped.

Asked why, his answer was "It's obvious. It's an obvious set-up."

Yeah... ENWorld message boards poll right above your post. I think over 300 responding individuals is going to trump the one person that you polled.

BTW, ThirdWizard, just to be clear, is the following a true statement?

If something is unfair, then using it would also be unfair

That isn't quite right. Nothing is unfair without being used. In other words, without the context of its use, it is neither fair, nor unfair, it simply is. When it is used, then we can determine its fairness or unfairness.

 

[Barak]

Where the trap is, and even how obvious it might be, to me, is sorta irrelevant. A trap that kills someone who springs it despite the fact that they roll a 19 on a "good" save is a tad overkill for me, unless it guards something extremely important, and it's obvious that it does. By the OP, this trap guards absolutely nothing, and so is just dumb and overkill.

And I don't even get to "Is it fair" before it fails the "does it make sense" test.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That isn't quite right. Nothing is unfair without being used. In other words, without the context of its use, it is neither fair, nor unfair, it simply is. When it is used, then we can determine its fairness or unfairness.

So, are you saying that the trap in the OP is not unfair?

Or, if you claim that the trap in the OP is unfair, is it unfair to use it?

RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

So, are you saying that the trap in the OP is not unfair?

Or, if you claim that the trap in the OP is unfair, is it unfair to use it?

In and of itself, it is neither fair not unfair. I've said that multiple times.

However, I don't think that the OP was concerned with whether it is absolutely fair or absolutely unfair (because that doesn't exist). I don't think the question in and of itself was the important part. The question, I think, is what our games consider fair and unfair, and in my game, this trap would be completely unfair.

By the way, check out my edit in my post above. I think your answer might help to shed some light for me on your oppinion here.

 

[Barak]

Here's a trap. DC 25 to find/disarm, 2d6+12 damage, Reflex save for half (DC 28)

Is that fair or unfair?

 

[wayne62682]

Here's a trap. DC 25 to find/disarm, 2d6+12 damage, Reflex save for half (DC 28)

Is that fair or unfair?

Not enough information. It's unfair at 1st level, but would be fair at 10th level. "Fairness" scales as the PCs do. However in the OP's scenario, the only thing to go on was that presumably the party searched, found nothing, and the character with the best saves failed on a natural 19. That just screams "unbeatable trap" to me, which is why I feel it was unfair.

 

[DungeonMaester]

>Oh man.

>I hate players who have 'end of of the world' syndrome. Come on. God forbid that there is something in the Dm's world that the pcs cant handle. That just unfair and unrealistic. Its only fun if every chalange can be meet with a dice roll. Please.

>Its one thing if the Dm is dumb sack of crap and sends first level parties agianst epic wizards and dragon's layer, but a single chalange, which can be solved by role playing instead of roll play.

>But Not everything should be thesisable for the pc (but not nessasrly overwelming, like a army of 20th level wizards) so they should travel with a sence of conservity, or else things like this happen.

Sorry for any typos in advance.

---Rusty