D&D 5E Is Warlock broken?

[SailorNash]

I think its rather telling that virtually all the responces here are, "Oh, no! There's no problem with Eldritch Blast!"

That, and every defense is "All you need are a few levels of Fighter, plus a feat or two, plus something else added in..."

I realize that multiclassing and feats are optional in name alone, but still, stock Warlock 20 seems to need a little help (beyond the first two levels, which are as bad as 3rd ed Ranger).

 

[famousringo]

I think warlocks are a test to see how balanced a campaign is.

If resting is unbalanced a warlock in the party will highlight it.

If the 3 pillars are unbalanced, again, a warlock will highlight it. They have a lot of great social abilities (and to a lesser extent exploration ones due to deception/illusion). If a campaign is highly focused on combat then the warlock may feel constrained by needing to invest all of their invocations on enhancing eldritch blast and their spell slots on hex. Then feel bored.

So I think the warlock is fine. It's just that if a game leans heavily one way or another, the warlock will show the flaws in that set up.

I'd say the warlock has really powerful exploration options between the invisible, extrasensory, infinite range telepathy familiars of the chain lock and the enormous arsenal of cantrips and rituals of the tomelock.

I see the warlock as a sort of build-your-own class, able to provide almost any role you want it to. Ranged, melee, social or exploration. But of course it can't do all these at once.

And for anybody who finds Hex and EB spam boring, I say don't cast Hex. Agonizing Blast is all you need for solid DPR, so spend your slots on one of the many good control spells warlock gets, or give half the party flight. Too many people get sucked into the idea that Hex is such an efficient, long-lasting spell that they can't cast anything else, but a focused burst of power at the right time might be more pivotal and more satisfying to the player.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

The short rest mechanic has already been discussed as problematic. It's seldom to see 6-8 encounters in a day. With 1-2 significant events, the "5 minute workday" classes have a huge edge. Unless the DM forces the group onward, any time the group has time to stop they'll push for a full rest instead of a short one. If you have time for one hour, you usually have time for seven more. And even though they were unwise to waste their abilities too soon, those classes are often not punished for this...if you were to push them onward, you would be risking a TPK, so as a group you have to fall back or rest.

Yeah, this was in the OP's original #1 post. So...

This has not been my experience. I've had three of my 5/6 players play Warlocks over the last 1.5+ (!) years, and each time it's been fun to DM those characters. Their motivations were...personal. Each warlock "felt" like a more well-rounded character over "I'm a wizard because, uh, I was smart and stuff so my dad sent me to learn magic". First was a Fiend Warlock. Next was a Fey Warlock. Last (who just died yesterday, at 4th level) was a Cthulhu Warlock. Each had cool back stories, personality traits, and, well, 'character'.

What does this have to do with the "6-8 encounters a day" thing? Nothing...other than those 6-8 encounters don't matter one way or the other into how the characters were each played. Y'see...IME, players of Warlocks don't focus on the "pew pew pew!" aspects of the Warlock Class. Each player focused on RP'ing his warlocks "patron focus", I guess. Because of that, they didn't much care for the hard-coded mechanics one way or the other.

Also, in my campaigns, I don't DM to "expectations of play". I DM to "expectations of the campaign milieu". My players know this (they should...they've all [but one] been with me for 16 to 30+ years!). My players know that if they just got the crap kicked out of them, they can and should retreat and heal up. Where? They know that I DM "to campaign expectations". They know that if they are in a rather active dungeon, resting for an hour without being discovered is a blessing...but they also know that in a mostly 'dead' cave system, resting an hour isn't a problem at all, and a full 'nights' rest shouldn't prove too difficult either. They also know that if they are in an active dungeon and have had 10 encounters already...that trying to rest in the dungeon is nigh-suicidal without clever and expert consideration and planning.

So, a Warlocks "mechanics" relying on Short rests? Not my problem as a DM. If the player is finding it difficult to have fun playing his warlock because he's always feeling like he's "got nothing he can do"...then perhaps the Warlock class just isn't for that type of player. To me, it's like a player wanting all the cool powers of a druid, but having no interest in RP'ing a lover and defender of nature who cares about animals and the natural order of the multiverse. If you and your DM don't want to enjoy (and put 'effort') into playing up the main focus of the Warlock class...the Patron...then don't play a Warlock! It really is that simple.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[SailorNash]

Based on many of the comments I've seen over the year or two, the warlock only seems broken to optimizers. And well, to be frank, 5e is not designed for optimizers. That's just one of those things you have to accept if you choose to play it. It's designed to give options, but for the optmizers who make up a fairly small % of gamers*, it's not a focus of the game design.

That hasn't been my experience, at least not personally.

EB spam is so effective it is near optimal. Maybe not as tweaked as a GWM Vengeance Pally, but in combat it is a very powerful glass cannon. I've had no complaints about how quickly I could mow down critters...in fact, in HotDQ, minimum damage was enough to off a kobold so I seldom even rolled.

The way I look at things when playing a character is like I'm piloting Voltron. When I'm playing a Druid, I've got dozens of fiddly buttons and knobs I could press. So many spells. So many class abilities. Do I want to talk my way out of a situation, or start biting things? That's fun. Even my simple Fighters can charge, disarm, trip, or so on. But when I'm playing a Warlock, I just have this one big red button that says "SHOOT TEH LAZER".

 

[SailorNash]

The context is "OP, you're not alone in noticing this issue."

Follow up question, then: I wonder why it is that a lot of people notice this, but are relatively silent, when boards everywhere have exploded with Ranger complaints to the point there's been not one but THREE different UA articles trying to "fix" the Ranger?

I'll admit...I'm a fan. Full disclosure. Kind of my pet issue here. But, thinking about all the talk of new mechanical improvements and such got me to thinking.

 

[SailorNash]

Summarizing, your complaints appear to be (correct me if I'm wrong):

a) A two-level dip in warlock gives other PCs access to the major benefit of the class (eldritch blast with Agonizing Blast/Repelling Blast).

b) Because few campaigns can enforce the recommended 6-8 encounters with two short rests per day, warlocks get the short end of the stick compared to the daily casters.

c) With only two spell slots (three at high levels) and so few short rests, playing a warlock is boring.

I can't really argue with b). With respect to a) and c), what about invocations? Those are supposed to be the warlock's bread and butter. The stronger ones have level minimums, so you can't get them by dipping, and most are usable at will with no limit. How do you find they work out in practice?

One of the things I was really looking forward to! I don't really like micromanaging a lot of things...I like smart, tricky characters, and I like arcane themes, but have never played a Wizard in previous editions because I didn't care for all the fiddly math of spell slots and such. Having at-will abilities, and "encounter" abilities (so long as they don't come off as "video-gamey" as 4E) would be my cup of tea.

Part of the problem was that I needed at least one invocation for EB, because that's the one thing I could (and was expected to) do. I needed another for my Tome abilities, thinking that would be the quickest way to add the most to my versatility, which instead ended up being redundant and seldom used. This "tax" kept me from picking some of the more fun abilities I otherwise would have snatched up.

Given a long enough timeline I would have picked up more, and lusted greedily at my future build full of so many neat tricks I could pull off...I'd never be as powerful as a Wizard, but what few things I had mastered I knew I could do reliably whenever I wanted. It just didn't work out as well as I had hoped?

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[SailorNash]

The warlock is different. But it has to be, right? We already have a wizard--with 8 variations, plus sorcerer, plus other full-casters that can be played in a wizardy/witchy kind of way.

I think those things that bug some--a more focused set of options that can be used more often--are what appeal to others. But again, it kind of has to be like that.

I absolutely LOVE that it is different. I dislike Sorcerer because it's too similar to Wizard...no real distinction in my mind, in mechanics or flavor. But this crazy new casting system is cool. Makes me wish there were other, similar options as I can't have EVERY character of mine sell their soul at some point.

But that's exactly why I kinda hate that the one non-traditional spellcasting option is kinda broken? Or at least problematic. I'd love to see some love here, for people who want to play casters without playing the typical Sorcerer/Wizard/Cleric. Even the half- and third-casters follow the same pattern, just at a reduced rate.

So the one really different alternative should be viable, as more than just a one-trick pony, in order to provide more fun options. And since the Warlock flavor is so very specific, I actually wouldn't mind seeing a natural or divine equivalent that used a similar system without the satanic overtones for characters that didn't want to tell that particular kind of story.

 

[Xeviat]

Has anyone had experience playing a Warlock 1-20 in a game without multiclassing or feats? How did it fare relative to other characters who also did not multiclass or have feats?

1-5, with feats (variant human, he took that grant temp HP feat, so nothing related to Warlock), pact of the tome. He compared fair against the archer hunter ranger; they had similar roles in the party (blast/shoot things). The ranger's AoE arrow spell was cool, the curse and hunter's mark were even (though the warlock had more over the course of a day). Both were "unimpressed" and we had to get creative with alternate attack effects (shoot them in the leg, shoot them in the face, etc).

The warlock player had wanted to be more beguiling and mysterious, but eldritch blast + agonizing blast proved too tempting.

 

[Giant2005]

The short rest mechanic certainly harms the class, just like it harms every other class that uses it. It is far from broken however.
In fact, a large portion of your issues falls directly in the camp of "user error". Basically, you have fallen into Hex's trap.
Hex is quite probably the most overrated spell in the game and should not be used so prolifically. I have played many Warlocks and only one has even taken that spell - that character makes use of it in about 25% of the fights he partakes in with a spare spell slot.

The simple truth is that you have far more useful things to be doing with your very limited spell slots. Among them, is what I consider to the be Warlock's true strength: Tanking.
The Warlock's access to several powerful and reliable temporary hit point bestowing abilities alone make it a top tier tank, but the Devil's Sight/Darkness combination easily secures it first place in that field. Even the average Barbarian is absolutely humbled by the tanking prowess of the mighty Warlock.

Warlocks however do benefit from multiclassing more than most which does make a pure Warlock a rare case. That isn't a weakness however but a strength - the reason Warlocks multiclass is because their unique abilities offer so many potential playstyle options and so many synergies to go with it.
The Necromancer 2/Fiendlock X combination can take on armies of mooks so well that even the immortal level 18 Champion can only witness while silently mouthing the phrase "WTF".