Last of the King's Men- a novel I'm writing. Looking for feedback!

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
340 views and I'm the only one responding? Oh boy.

On chapter five:

1. "The soft melody being played across the campfire began picking up speed, painting images in the ear of happier times and easier days."

So, happier times have an ear? Because that's what that sounds like. ;)

2. "Before he could even reacted,"

Could react, could even react, or could even have reacted?

3. "I was very impressed with how you handled himself."

Probably meant to be yourself.

4. "If you are willing, I would be pleased to have you."

Hmm. That sounds like something completely different. :angel:

5. The story flows well, but the jump into the story within it and then back to the fire is a bit abrupt both times.
 

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UltimaGabe

First Post
340 views and I'm the only one responding? Oh boy..

Tell me about it. Even of the 20+ of my closest friends (several of which were even in the D&D campaign that inspired this novel, and others of which I've been telling about it since I first came up with the concept and they've loved hearing about it), only one has actually kept up with it. But then again, I know that some of my friends have had their own projects (writing or otherwise) that I haven't kept up with either, not for any particular reason, but just because I don't think of it. So I guess I can't really blame anyone.

2. "Before he could even reacted,"

Could react, could even react, or could even have reacted?

3. "I was very impressed with how you handled himself."

Probably meant to be yourself.

Yeah, it's crazy how many seemingly obvious typos manage to make it through even after I've proofread 2-3 times (both out loud and in my head). And you're not even reading the first version (there were some pretty horrid grammatical errors when I first posted it, which were brought to my attention AFTER my aforementioned multiple proofreadings).

4. "If you are willing, I would be pleased to have you."

Hmm. That sounds like something completely different. :angel:

Trust me, you wouldn't believe how many times I've written a sentence and then thought, "Wow, this is sounding really homoerotic."

5. The story flows well, but the jump into the story within it and then back to the fire is a bit abrupt both times.

Yeah, I see what you mean. A lot of what I think up in my head would work great if it were a movie, where I could cut back and forth between the past part of the story (in this case, Harrow's childhood and initiation into knighthood) and the present (Sir Harrow reminiscing about said childhood), but in text it's more difficult to make that work (especially when it's all being described in the past tense). But at the same time, I didn't want it to all be in the past, so I felt like I needed to go back and forth at least a couple times (so that the audience doesn't forget that he's reminiscing).

Thanks for keeping up with the story, Jonesy! I sincerely hope that you're enjoying it and not just doing this because you feel sorry for me or something. (Though I'll take whatever I can get! :p)
 

jonesy

A Wicked Kendragon
Thanks for keeping up with the story, Jonesy! I sincerely hope that you're enjoying it and not just doing this because you feel sorry for me or something. (Though I'll take whatever I can get! :p)
I want to see where you're going with it. Trust me, my powers of ignoring things I find uninteresting are vast and endless. :p
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
I just discovered your thread and I've started looking at what you have so far.

Reactions as I go -- I'm starting with Chapter 1, so I'm a little behind.

There's a whole lot of exposition in this chapter, a lot of it I don't think you need. Something I encourage my students to do is try to take a sample like this and cut it in half (based on word count) without losing anything important. You can go a long way tightening up the language, but at a certain point you start looking at what's on the page and thinking about what you might really need.

So, you've got this kid, Artemis. That's originally a girl's name (greek goddess), and that throws a whole gender-bending thing into the story I'm not sure you intend.

Then there's stuff like: "he set down the buckets- perhaps a bit too forcefully- and fell to his knees, weeping into the dirt." -- weeping like this is either childish or girlish, traditionally -- and it might just be an odd note, but when you have that on top of the name thing, it starts to feel like a pattern.

Back to the "too much exposition" thing. Make a list of the things that actually happen in this chapter:
1- boy walks to get water
2- boy has a flashback to Orin's departure
3- boy weeps because life isn't fair
4- boy breaks a stick
5- boy returns to the house to find the place destroyed and his master & wife dead
6- boy finds special shirt in the burned ruins of the house
7- boy hits the road.

Okay, so that's what happens. Anything else that's in the chapter can probably be cut out.
- How bad does his master have to be? If they're just going to be dead on the next page? How much do we need to invest there?
- Do we really need two expressions of how unhappy the kid is? weeping AND beating a stump with a stick?
- If there's something else you feel like the chapter needs to have, can you do something other than just tell the reader about it?

Something else to keep in mind: Your reader will engage better if you leave them a little work to do.

Take, for example, one of the more concrete sections of the first chapter -- the description of the destroyed farm house:
The building was not simply on fire- it was destroyed. The door had been torn clean from its hinges, the windows shattered inward. A section of wall on the side of the homestead was torn apart as if a mighty battering ram had tried to knock the entire building down.

The first sentence is telling. It says "this is what you need to think about what you're seeing" to the reader.

The sentences after that describe real, visible, tangible details. I think the details could be stronger, but they're still concrete details. (When I say they could be stronger: you've got a broken wall, but what kind of wall is it? That matters, because you could say a lot with the broken bits of wall remaining -- if it's an adobe house, then maybe cracked mud is scattered everywhere and ground in deep, heavy footprints, while the lathe beneath sticks up like broken ribs, and so on -- if it's a sod house, or a log cabin, or a cut board house, or plaster, or stone -- each of those will look different if it's "destroyed")

This example in particular stands out to me because what you show with the sentences that follow the first doesn't really live up to what you've told us in the first sentence. If there's enough wall left to see windows have been blown in, it's hard to see it as completely destroyed (my initial response to "completely destroyed" is to imagine a wreck with no standing walls, just a pile of burning rubble, etc.)

moving on in the same paragraph -- there's a passage about thousands of bootprints around the destroyed home, and then this:

Artemis stood, no longer aware of the aching pain in his arms from carrying buckets of water all day long. Without even realizing it, he let the buckets fall, and they hit the ground, spilled their contents, and rolled away down the hill, never to be seen or even thought of again.

That's a lot to make someone read just to finish off saying that you're never going to need to think about it again, or remember it.

And then

He slumped to his knees, staring at the diminished hulk of a structure that was all he had ever known.

Which feels, again, like a feminine reaction to me, but I'm fixated now thanks to the name thing......;)

And first he stands, then drops to his knees right away? It's like his response to the destruction of the only home he has ever known is to do squat thrusts?

What if those two sections were rewritten like this:

Artemis stood, no longer aware of the ache in his arms. He let the buckets fall, staring at the wreckage of the only home he had ever known.

So, I'm conveying the same basic feel and content for that moment, with far fewer words (about 1/3 the word count, I think). It's tighter, it covers what matters.

That's why the word count game -- and it really is a game -- can work so well to improve your writing. It also cuts against everything you've been taught in school, where your writing assignments were always first judged on word count and length, and you were therefore rewarded for writing frothy, whipped-up text rather than tight, precise, lean prose. If you set an arbitrary goal like cutting the word count in half -- and then go back to your text and look long and hard at what you can remove without losing what "matters" you can't help but make the writing better.

-rg
 
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Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
I didn't quite finish my thought about "leave your reader a little work to do" -- Let your reader make value judgements like "the building was destroyed" by limiting what you put in your text to the details. A very Joe Friday "just the facts" thing.

So, if you want the reader to understand that the house was destroyed, don't tell them the house was destroyed, tell them the walls were broken, support beams broken off at the ground in twisted, jagged splinters, the thatch of the roof burned away to a grey snow-like ash scattered across the scene, etc -- and let the reader decide "so, pretty much destroyed".

-rg
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
Notes on reading Chapter 2:

I had a lot of the same reaction to chapter 2 that I had to chapter 2 -- you could improve a lot with a revision that studiously reduced the word count by half, focusing on eliminating exposition and "telling" where possible.

This is also the first place where we have dialog, so I'm going to focus a little more attention on that.

My Soapbox about Dialog: One of my biggest pet peeves about any sort of fiction is the idea that every character always says exactly what's on their mind. Good dialog is often more like an iceberg -- there should be subtext and misdirection and all kinds of stuff going on under the surface -- one again, a lot of that is there for the reader to figure out rather than just being told. Really great dialog is more like tow icebergs colliding -- you see the bits on the surface and maybe some parts above the surface collide, but the real action is all going on in subtext, beneath the surface.

So, you've got this dialog between the King and Aelfie. It's actually a flashback, but some weird formatting makes it show up as part of the previous paragraph, so it doesn't stand out very well.

Here's the section I'm referring to:

[sblock]Several years ago, King Adorn had come to Aelfrey one day as he was exiting the chapel on a day of worship. He requested Aelfrey take a walk with him, out in the countryside, later that day. When they met, the king barely spoke until they were far outside the city’s walls, far away from his personal guard.

“Aelfrey, I want you to know that I truly value your loyalty and service,” the king had said to him. “There are times when I feel like there are few I can trust, even among my closest advisors.”

Aelfrey was slightly taken aback by this. He had always seen King Adorn as a beloved sovereign- certainly like a father figure to him, and he assumed many of the court felt the same way. But he felt no small amount of pride in hearing that he held his lord’s favor.

“But, your highness,” said Aelfrey, “Truly you know that each of us Horselords would lay down our lives for you in a heartbeat, were you only to require it.”

King Adorn nodded. “Yes, I know. And I truly value that as well. But I fear that there are some- even among my court- that may be swayed, either by hopes of personal gain, or by the machinations of outside forces.”

Aelfrey simply walked along with the king, unsure of what to say.

“My point, Aelfrey, is that I require something of you.”

“Anything, my liege. My life and service are yours.”

King Adorn stopped, placing a hand on Aelfrey’s shoulder.

“I need you to be… a spy, of sorts. I need you to be my eyes and ears among my court, and I need you to uncover any treachery or disunion among them. The instant you have any sort of proof, I need you to show me. Do you understand?”

Aelfrey had agreed all too eagerly, without fully realizing the weight of the burden of proof. Over the years, he had hunches, but without proof nothing could be done. Yet one constant hunch that he had tried to quantify at every opportunity remained: Galmod. Aelfrey suspected him of several plots against the throne, starting with King Adorn’s son’s mysterious illness. But without any proof, and because Galmod’s position as general placed him so close to the king, Aelfrey couldn’t afford to make any accusations without proof. When the news of orcs first arrived, his first thought immediately drifted to the duke.[/sblock]

Okay. So, just about any scene you're going to put in front of the reader probably can be improved if you have some clear intentions and goals for the parties involved, for starters.

So, in this case, you've got the King, and you've got Aelfrey.
-Alefrey wants to serve the king -- he's loyal and dutiful and all that.
-The King is troubled, and wants to ask Aelfrey to be a spy of sorts for him.

So, already I'm a little worried about the scene because Aelfrey doesn't seem to want anything -- at least anything specific. It's possible that he really is that loyal and dutiful, and it may be that he's otherwise fairly satisfied with life at the time the conversation takes place, so he doesn't have strong desires, but even that comfort with the status quo can be a good thing to keep in mind during the conversation.

Okay, so the king wants Aelfie to be his spy -- it's still not a very interesting conversation if he can just walk up to Aelfie and say "Hey, dood, like, I think there are some creeps around the court, so, like, tell me if you hear anything". Which is, outside my asinine attempt at humor, pretty much what the king does in this scene.

In the end, the scene as written is not much more than that. The king asks Aelfrey to do what is essentially his duty, anyway. After all, if Aelfrey were to come across the sort of perfidy that the King fears, wouldn't he bring it to the king anyway, even if the king had not asked him to do so specifically?

So lets go back to what the king wants out of the scene. And where he starts. The king fears that members of his court are not as loyal and trustworthy as he might wish. He has suspicions, nothing more.

His response is to turn to Aelfrey. Why Aelfrey? Because Alefrey is loyal. Not because he's especially smart, or insightful, or wise, or suited to this sort of work in other ways; but because Aelfrey is the one member of his court he feels he can trust the most.

If you run down that line of reasoning a bit, there's a whole ugly thicket it could imply. Can the king really trust no one else? If he can trust anyone else, is he? Is he asking others to do the same sort of spying on each other? If that's the case, is he the sort of conniving puppetmaster who might sow this sort of suspicion in his court for the sake of his own enjoyment?

OR is he just trying to get as many dogs in this hunt as possible?

And so on.

So, anyway........ I know from this thread that this is inspired by your game, and that's cool, but a lot of the expedients that we get away with in a game don't work as well in fiction. In a game, the king calls on the PCs for help -- not really because they're the best guys for the job, but because that's who the PCs have decided to play. We ignore the problems inherent there, and get on to rolling initiative, but for fiction, it needs to be tighter than that.

An interesting alternative to the scene could involve Aelfrey and the King dancing around each other a bit, not trying to reveal their suspicions to each other, while trying to figure out what the other one sees going on in the court. Aelfrey doesn't have proof, but he has suspicions. The King has his own theories, but doesn't want to prejudice Aelfrey.

Anyway -- I'm running out of time -- the key point I wanted to make here is that dialog can be much more interesting and engaging when there's much more going on than is being expressed in the words, and when both parties in the scene want something very specific out of the scene. And if you can't do that, you might be better off skipping that scene and covering the information with a quick "The king had tasked Aelfrey to keep an eye on the loyalty of his court.") and leave it at that.

-rg
 

UltimaGabe

First Post
Radiant Gnome- first of all, thank you so much for reading some of my novel and taking the time to comment! I very much appreciate any and all feedback I can get. You've definitely given me a lot to think about- everything I've written so far is very much a "first draft", and I've known from the beginning that at some point I'll need to go back and likely overhaul/heavily edit the majority of what I've written. Also, I know that dialogue is certainly one of my weak points- so I'm going to try to keep what you've said in mind in the future.

If I can make one request for anyone reading this, try not to let the fact that this was inspired by a D&D campaign color your opinion of the work (for better or worse)- the campaign in question was really inspiration only, and I'm trying to approach this as a completely separate work (that shares some of the same plot points). I know that tabletop gaming and fiction hardly belong in the same space, and so I'm trying my best not to stick to any sort of game ruleset or even follow the same kind of structure as a tabletop game. (Also, just in case anyone was wondering, it'll still be a while before the story involves anything that occured during the game anyway.)

Anyway, once again, thank you for your input! It's definitely given me lots to think about that I'll see what I can do.
 

Radiating Gnome

Adventurer
UltimaGabe -

Some notes on chapter 3....

Mostly, in this chapter, I had little notes. In many cases there were word choice things -- for example, in the opening of the chapter, Artemis is hiding in a "tiny shed" -- and yet it's a tiny shed made out of "timbers" -- and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems like a little thing, but as you make the transition from first draft to final, you're going to have to spend some time looking for stuff link that. A tiny shed is probably made out of thin boards, probably clapboards.

I found the action difficult to follow in many places because of pronoun use, etc. And while some of your usage may not be wrong, it can still be confusing for the reader.

For example, this passage:

[sblock]
The old man in the black robes spat on the ground, and Artemis could see that some blood went with it. He clenched his teeth and glared at the gauntleted man.

“That ‘king’ is no king of mine. I serve the one true king of Lograd, and no false-king can pass judgment on me. If you’re going to kill us, then kill us; the Raven Queen shall have your life someday, be it today, or after a long life of betrayal and following a coward who calls himself king!”
[/sblock]

When I read this the first time, I became confused, thinking that Artemis was inserted into the action, and he was the one delivering the speech (which was very much out of character for him, showing all kinds of backbone, etc). I'm not going to think hard enough about the grammar to decide whether your usage there was technically correct. The old man was the subject of the previous sentence, but Artemis was the name that was most recently used that the pronoun could stand in for ..... anyway, it's a bit of unnecessary confusion.

There are a couple of ways to fix this -- first of all, you could be specific and attribute the line of dialog to the old man. Or you could remove the words "and Artemis could see" (they're not necessary, as Artemis is the viewpoint character for this chapter, we can assume that we're seeing what's visible to him).

This sort of line by line editing is crucial, and I know this is an early draft, so I'm not going to harp on it too much -- there are lots of places where this sort of revision could take a pretty cool idea and make it really work.

That kind of editing is very difficult, though, especially if you wrote it yourself -- and it's harder the more recently you've done the writing. The closer you are to the writing of the passage, the less likely you are to see what's on the page, and not what you meant to put on the page.

Couple of other things: the knights had their swords "trained" on the old man? That seems a little silly to me -- it's not like their blades shoot. If they were "pointing" with the swords, that might not be so bad -- it's the direct threat, blah blah blah. But "trained on" implies shooting, at least in my mind. It's part of aiming, etc.

The end of the chapter was a little weird -- I had a hard time justifying the knight's gambit -- turning his back on Artemis -- if that really was a gambit. Artemis attacks, the knight parries, then scowls at him with contempt, turns his back and walks away? Doesn't really work for me. The other guy may be a bigger threat, but a trained fighting man should probably have found a way to not expose his back to either enemy, etc.

More confusion -- between Artemis' imaginary world and the real scene going on, I found a lot of stuff confusion. There's so much moving around from one imaginary space to another -- he's dreaming, then he's back in the world -- then he imagines he's the wizard, then he's fighting imaginary enemies, being petrified by an imaginary wizard, then suddenly he's back in the real world again.

The transitions there were confusion -- you might want to find a way to make the distinctions more clear. When he's having his nightmare, maybe that passage is in italics. When he's fighting the imaginary warriors, maybe you use some sort of text cues that make it more obvious that the foes are imaginary, that he's essentially playing at swords and sorcery when the real world suddenly intrudes with the real thing.

Last thought: the dream at the opening -- think about removing that entire passage. I don't think you need it, but it might pay off later on, and that would be something I have no way of knowing yet. Dream sequences can be tricky, but more than that, in the short span of this chapter you have two passages that take place entirely within Artemis -- his nightmare during the story and his imaginary fight. Both can work, but they tell the reader two very different things about Artemis, tell us two very different things, and they seem to cut against each other. The dream tells us about a young man who's scare and scarred by the devastation he's found himself in -- everything around him has been destroyed. He's frightened, hiding, and imagining his own death, etc.

The second is a playful moment of imagining himself as a hero, armed with battered shield and broken sword. The Artemis we see there is immature but no frightened, he's playful and imagining great things for himself.

An alternative (one that might be stronger than removing it) that might make sense would be to save the nightmare until after he gets slapped down by the knight in the battle. So he starts the chapter enjoying his new freedom, swinging his broken sword at trees and the wreckage of farm houses as he walks through them, and he doesn't experience real terror until he foolishly gets involved in a real fight and gets his bell rung but the knight's mace. He suddenly goes from a child who imagines he'll live forever to a young adult who knows that he won't. Then the nightmare makes a lot more sense.

Anyway, I think you're off to a good start with this chapter -- the action here is good, I like most of what you're trying to do, it's really just a matter of cutting and tightening.


-rg
 

UltimaGabe

First Post
Whew! This last chapter was definitely difficult for me, because, as I am learning, dialogue is not one of my strong points. But I did my best (at this point, at least) and I'm eager to get to chapters beyond.

So, chapter 6 is up! And again, thanks for your critiques, everyone!
 


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