Living Supers - General Discussion Thread

[Hand of Vecna]

I think I have seen builds which got around this sort of problem by nesting the APs and then flawing each one so it can only be used at a specific size setting so:

Stun 4 (PF: 2 APs) [2x4 +2 = 10pp]
AP 1: Blast 4
AP 2: Force Field AP (6+2aps)
FF1Limited usable at huge size only) - Force Field 3 Impervious (6pp)
FF2Large size only) - Force Field 4 Impervious (Ablative on 2 ranks) (6pp)
FF3Medium or smaller) - Force Field 5 Impervious (Ablative on 4 ranks) (6pp)

Usually nesting APs is something I abhor but in this case it seems sensible. (Perhaps the different biometric signatures which Titan puts out at different sizes affect the gauntlets feedback circuits so that they produces different force fields)

I've never herd of/seen "nested arrays." Not sure "usable at X size only" would be enough of a limit to be a real Flaw, though (maybe as a Drawback). But, it does definitely seem a step in the right direction... mind if I expand it a bit?:

Stun 4 (PF: 2 8pp APs) [2x4 +2 = 10pp]
AP 1: Blast 4 {8pp}
AP 2 [Huge only]: Force Field 3 (EX: Impervious; PF: 2 6pp APs) {8pp}
AAP 1 [Large only]: FF 4 (EX: Impervious; Flaw: Ablative on 2 ranks) {6pp}
AAP 2 [Medium or smaller]: FF 5 (EX: Impervious; Flaw: Ablative on 4 ranks) {6pp}

And that's some good technobabble there

PS How do ablative powers work in arrays, eg if an ablative force field took 8 hits so it was completely worn out could you still switch to the blast AP or would all the energy in the device have gone? (I guess the same question applies to powers with limited numbers of uses)

Since Ablative (Fades) is just on the FF (not the Device itself), and since FF isn't the 'base' power, I believe the others could still be used even if the FF function is all ablated/faded out.

 

[rgordona]

I've never herd of/seen "nested arrays." Not sure "usable at X size only" would be enough of a limit to be a real Flaw, though (maybe as a Drawback). But, it does definitely seem a step in the right direction... mind if I expand it a bit?:


Stun 4 (PF: 2 8pp APs) [2x4 +2 = 10pp]
AP 1: Blast 4 {8pp}
AP 2 [Huge only]: Force Field 3 (EX: Impervious; PF: 2 6pp APs) {8pp}
AAP 1 [Large only]: FF 4 (EX: Impervious; Flaw: Ablative on 2 ranks) {6pp}
AAP 2 [Medium or smaller]: FF 5 (EX: Impervious; Flaw: Ablative on 4 ranks) {6pp}

You're welcome to expand, after all I had already stolen the idea.


Nested arrays: from the above example their are really 5 alternate powers, you can only use one of the 5 at any one time, but because of the construction only 2pp have been paid for APs not 4.


Constructions like that can really start to save points if you take it to extremes eg 8 alternate powers could be bought for 3pp and 16 for 4pp.


[Sblock=example]Something like:
AP1
AP1A
AP1Aa
AP1Ab
AP1B
AP1Ba
AP1Bb
AP2
AP2A
AP2Aa
AP2Ab
AP1B
AP2Ba
AP2Bb


Where only the bottom levels are powers the higher levels just being containers for powers.
[/sblock]

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Nested arrays: from the above example their are really 5 alternate powers, you can only use one of the 5 at any one time, but because of the construction only 2pp have been paid for APs not 4.

True, but 2 of those APs are weaker than the others. The 3 FF APs are all weaker (less pps) than the one Blast AP. So it's not a complete "4 APs for the price of 2" deal.

Constructions like that can really start to save points if you take it to extremes eg 8 alternate powers could be bought for 3pp and 16 for 4pp.

True enough, but keep in mind each "level" down gets progressively weaker, 'till you get to a point where the APs likely aren't powerful enough to be worth it.

Some 20 AP Power (PF: 2 20pp APs) [22 pp]
AP 1: Some 20pp power {20pp}
AP 2: Some 18pp power (PF: 2 18pp APs) {20pp}
AAP 1: Some 18pp power {18pp}
AAP 2: Some 16pp power (PF: 2 16pp APs) {18pp}
AAAP 1: Some 16pp power {16pp}
AAAP 2: Some 14pp power (PF: 2 14pp APs) {16pp}
And so on.

 

[rgordona]

[sblock=long and boring]

Saves points, yeah, but each "level" down gets progressively weaker, 'till you get to a point where the APs likely aren't powerful enough to be worth it.

In this case I agree, it is not a complete 4 for 2 but in principle it could be. If we Take Mr Jones as an example his mental array has a base power at 32 points and 7 APs for a total cost of 39pp

But if I could have got the same effect by buying a base power at 34pp with 1 AP for a total cost of 35pp. The base power is not a real power but a 34 point array which contains a 33point power with one AP. Again the 33 point power is not a real power but a 32pp power with one AP (which is also a real power)

[/sblock]

 

[Salix]

Good discussion guys. I don't know if I want to have any power where I have to have each individual GMs permission to use it. Could I just buy FF3 with no ablative and be done with it, or is there something here in the build that people would want to make a proposal out of?

 

[Hand of Vecna]

[sblock=long and boring]

In this case I agree, it is not a complete 4 for 2 but in principle it could be.[/sblock]

No, it couldn't. The more APs and sub-APs and sub-sub-APs you tack on, the less each individual power (and sub-power, and sub-sub-power) will be worth.

[sblock=long and boring]If we Take Mr Jones as an example his mental array has a base power at 32 points and 7 APs for a total cost of 39pp

But if I could have got the same effect by buying a base power at 34pp with 1 AP for a total cost of 35pp. The base power is not a real power but a 34 point array which contains a 33point power with one AP. Again the 33 point power is not a real power but a 32pp power with one AP (which is also a real power)[/sblock]

And each one is worth one less pp than the one before, getting back to the "point of diminishing returns." And I don't think that would work anyway, since the base power needs to be -- or at least should be -- an actual power.

And there's the "APs aren't meant to work that way, in part because that way leads to Munchkinsim, and in part because it's a bookkeeping nightmare" factor

 

[rgordona]

[sblock=still L&B]

No, it couldn't. The more APs and sub-APs and sub-sub-APs you tack on, the less each individual power (and sub-power, and sub-sub-power) will be worth.

And each one is worth one less pp than the one before, getting back to the "point of diminishing returns." And I don't think that would work anyway, since the base power needs to be -- or at least should be -- an actual power.

It is definitely possible with the Array structure from UP (Although not quite as eficient). And I think in the standard rules as well. A fully worked example may follow but it is late and would take a lot of typing.
[Sblock=arrays example]
Mr Contradiction
Base Power: Physical Array - Rank 17 (17x2+1=35pp)
AP = Mental Array

Physical Array
Base power: Strike Array - Rank 16 (16*2+2=34pp)
AP: Blast Array
AP: Snare Array

Mental Array
Base power: Movement Array - Rank 16 (16*2+2=34)
AP: Enhanced Stats Array
AP: Defensive Array

Strike Array
Base Power: Strike 10, Autofire, Penetrating 5, Improved Crit 5 (30+2)
AP: Strike 10, Autofire 2
AP: Strike 10, Alt Save, Autofire

Blast Array
Base Power: Blast 10, Autofire (30+2)
AP Blast 10, Penetrating 5, Improved Crit 5
AP Blast 10, Alt Save

Extend the remaining arrays as above. Esentially this buys at least 18 30 point powers for only 35pp.
[/sblock]

[/sblock]

And there's the "APs aren't meant to work that way, in part because that way leads to Munchkinsim, and in part because it's a bookkeeping nightmare" factor

I completely agree :>

 

[Hand of Vecna]

I'm still not sure that's legal (to say nothing of the agreed-upon Munchkin/bookkeeping hassle) -- AP's are something within an array, I don't think you can have an array as an alternate power.

For a different/wider perspective, there are discussions on "nesting" things at the ATT here and here. (Neither of these really seem to clarify anything, though....)

 

[rgordona]

Thread Lifted from Tokyo Problem

Typically I will read all public character sheets if I am involved in the game, and try and read the entire back story if I join mid way.

I do try and keep a paper wall in my mind between IC and OOC knowledge but that does not mean I will not act on OOC knowledge in game. For example I consider niche protection to be simple manners even if there is no IC way to know that my character is second best with a skill I will consider carefully whether to use it or let the other character try, especially in situations where failure would prevent retry. Of course if playing a impulsive character I might go ahead and try but in general I think it is no fun for one player to ruin another's chance to shine just because he is a faster poster.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Typically I will read all public character sheets if I am involved in the game, and try and read the entire back story if I join mid way.

I do try and keep a paper wall in my mind between IC and OOC knowledge but that does not mean I will not act on OOC knowledge in game. For example I consider niche protection to be simple manners even if there is no IC way to know that my character is second best with a skill I will consider carefully whether to use it or let the other character try, especially in situations where failure would prevent retry. Of course if playing a impulsive character I might go ahead and try but in general I think it is no fun for one player to ruin another's chance to shine just because he is a faster poster.

As I said in the Tokyo thread, it's what I do, too. Always have, and most folks I've played with in online games (for the past decade or so) do, too. I'll act on things that should be plainly obvious, but don't use info that my char could not know (and, to be safe, I include most background stuff into the "not known" category unless the sheet specifically says that some event/tidbit is widely known).