From what I'm reading OSE (Old School Essentials) has sort of become the juggernaut of the OSR business. [This is also being reflected in a months-long delay to get the products when I ordered.] Flipping through a PDF of OSE and Basic Fantasy, I think I am actually preferring the cheaper, more widely available, and larger supported Basic Fantasy RPG. I have been doing some play in Swords & Wizardry lately, trying to get involved in their online campaign. But, man, I just can't get past the cringey feel of LotFP.
LotFP in financial dire straights?
Sacrosanct
Legend
The whole "only dumb/simple people play rules lite games" is about as common an attack as the "4e isn't a real RPG, it's a WoW knockoff" comments. I.e., it's go to edition warring commentary that's been going on for decades. While this isn't a conference on world peace, it is a gaming forum that has rules against threadcapping and edition warring.
I asked you to refrain from it, and instead you seem to double down on it with "it's only humor, chill out" response. Disappointing.
Mod Note:
While many of us would like emojis to actually represent what they seem to, a great many people use them mockingly, or to set up the excuse that "it was only a joke". The result is that an emoji is as interpretable as the text itself, and cannot be relied upon to save you.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
Sigh.... I guess it had to be said, didn't it?
According to the scuttlebutt on the official Lamentations Facebook page, their fans seem to have rallied to purchase product and Raggi says:
"Because I haven't gotten so far in the accounting portion of the order processing I don't know where exactly we stand yet but I'd guess we are close to being out of the IMMEDIATE DISASTER DANGER zone."
I suspect that this is only a stopgap, and that they will find themselves in said...dire straits...again in the future. As others have said, gaming culture is shifting and Lamentations is not. It's particularly telling to see claims that "LoftP fans have been marginalized" and that "Wizards may be going woke but they can't make me."
According to the scuttlebutt on the official Lamentations Facebook page, their fans seem to have rallied to purchase product and Raggi says:
"Because I haven't gotten so far in the accounting portion of the order processing I don't know where exactly we stand yet but I'd guess we are close to being out of the IMMEDIATE DISASTER DANGER zone."
I suspect that this is only a stopgap, and that they will find themselves in said...dire straits...again in the future. As others have said, gaming culture is shifting and Lamentations is not. It's particularly telling to see claims that "LoftP fans have been marginalized" and that "Wizards may be going woke but they can't make me."
Sacrosanct
Legend
I agree. These same people won't re-purchase the same material again next month when the next month's bills are due.
Indeed. We've seen this battle before, and it won't end well for them or the sustained success LotFM held previously.
I want to clarify. Being a fan of the OSR, and even being a fan of gritty OSR products (like LotFP) does not mean you're an old white dinosaur who is sexist, bigot, conservative, or whatever. I think that gets implied some times, especially when things like this are happening and the most vocal people rallying behind LotFP seem to be making bigoted/sexist comments as their excuse as to why LotFP is now failing as a product.
The OSR is simply a a mechanical preference, not a political one. As someone who started playing in 1981 and my favorite edition is 1e, I am also in full support of "woke" culture. Heck, I give corporate presentations on diversity and privilege lol. A person can prefer a streamlined basic system, much of the art from the old days, and like sword and sorcery while also omitting the sexist/racist stereotypes that appeared back then. I can like my 10' poles, rot grubs, race as class, Trampier art, and gritty dungeons and also be supportive of LGBTQ characters in the game world and use proper gender identity pronouns and ignore gender stat limits or modifiers. Believe it or not, it's possible
It's unfortunate that the OSR also has a subset of gamers who cling to the old sexist stereotypes and now are blaming the shift to a more diverse and aware gaming culture as the reason they are now no longer being tolerated, rather than own up to their own toxic behavior. A lot of the arguments I'm seeing in defense of Raggi and his game are the same arguments people used to defend FATAL. To be honest, if you like FATAL, I'm perfectly fine with people making assumptions about you and it's not their fault or "woke culture" doing it.
I think there can certainly be a future for OSR publishers (as well as modern editions of D&D and other systems) who want to present games with evil humanoids in dungeons that exist to be killed, without care about their complex role in societies. But for me there is a fine line between that and the one game of LotFP that I played where we were required to kill and eat sentient gnomes that were flavored like cookies. To me there are a few lines that I don't want to cross in my games (the heroes expecting to murder neutral or good-aligned NPCs, sexual assault, infanticide). I'm not telling anybody not to play those games, I'm just not going to do it or buy it.
But yeah, I'm totally down with the "traditional" feel of D&D from the 80s, classic dungeon crawls, etc.
But yeah, I'm totally down with the "traditional" feel of D&D from the 80s, classic dungeon crawls, etc.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
Well-said. The OSR can be inclusive and diverse; it does not have to be the last redoubt of toxic attitudes. Even Lamentations of the Flame Princess could have had a way forward, once upon a time. But it's too late for that now; the rot has settled in. Even if James Raggi wanted to (and he clearly does not), he could not change things around, both in regards to the game's attitude or its finances.
I want to clarify. Being a fan of the OSR, and even being a fan of gritty OSR products (like LotFP) does not mean you're an old white dinosaur who is sexist, bigot, conservative, or whatever. I think that gets implied some times, especially when things like this are happening and the most vocal people rallying behind LotFP seem to be making bigoted/sexist comments as their excuse as to why LotFP is now failing as a product.
The OSR is simply a a mechanical preference, not a political one. As someone who started playing in 1981 and my favorite edition is 1e, I am also in full support of "woke" culture. Heck, I give corporate presentations on diversity and privilege lol. A person can prefer a streamlined basic system, much of the art from the old days, and like sword and sorcery while also omitting the sexist/racist stereotypes that appeared back then. I can like my 10' poles, rot grubs, race as class, Trampier art, and gritty dungeons and also be supportive of LGBTQ characters in the game world and use proper gender identity pronouns and ignore gender stat limits or modifiers. Believe it or not, it's possible
It's unfortunate that the OSR also has a subset of gamers who cling to the old sexist stereotypes and now are blaming the shift to a more diverse and aware gaming culture as the reason they are now no longer being tolerated, rather than own up to their own toxic behavior. A lot of the arguments I'm seeing in defense of Raggi and his game are the same arguments people used to defend FATAL. To be honest, if you like FATAL, I'm perfectly fine with people making assumptions about you and it's not their fault or "woke culture" doing it.
RogueRonin
Explorer
To be fair, the delay is because of the fact that OSE is based in the UK, and COVID screwed up a giant shipment to the US distributor (Exalted Funeral). I also pre-ordered a bunch of OSE stuff back in March and haven't gotten it yet (although apparently it is now expected to be shipped very soon). The product just couldn't get across the Atlantic during the pandemic I guess.
As to the topic of the thread: sad to see a game company go out of business, not terribly sad that it's LotFP. So it goes.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Yep. As I mentioned upthread, even though Tenker is clearly old school in his preferences, he was quick to call out the toxicity of some of the participants behind LotFP. OSR doesn't have to mean old white grognards who refuse to change old toxic thinking.
heck, Tim Kask is about as old school as you can get, and he's very much progressive. It is of my belief that grognards like myself, and OSR fans like myself, need to call out this toxic behavior when we see it. and remind some of these folks that OSR is not a safe place (ironically) for them to push toxic beliefs. Not because we're SJWs or snowflakes, but because it's the right and kind thing to do.
It's quite interesting to see old school gamers join Tim's FB page and say how glad they are and thankful they are of him. Then they post something toxic and Tim shuts them down immediately and they have no idea what hit them lol.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
conspiracy theory
Hmmm...OSE is based in the UK. ENWorld is based in the UK. Isn't it then clear as day that the 'E' in OSE secretly stands for ENWorld, and thus ENWorld are plotting to go completely old-school once OSE hits the market! Old School ENWorld, here we come!
Buh-bye 5e discussions! Buh-bye 3e-v-4e edition wars! All old-school, all the time 'round here, starting ASAP! The delay in shipping has merely staved all this off for a few months...
/conspiracy theory...
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