Marking

[TheUltramark]

here is my question
do you know if you are marked?
is this a question of intelligence? do animals or natural beasts instinctively know if they are marked, or suffer penalties if they are already engaged with someone else, or, do they have the choice of who to attack replaced with who has last marked them?
what about intelligent creatures, do they know they are "the warden's grasp" for example? or do they have to find out the hard way?



it seems like there is some cause on both sides of this one.

 

[Aulirophile]

All creatures are aware of the effects of all powers and effects to which they are subjected.

However, in the case of the Warden, Battlemind, and Fighter, their mark is disassociated from their punishment mechanic. So, RAW, no, monsters will not know what happens if they violate the mark till they actually do so.

Paladins and Swordmages punishment mechanic is tied into the marking power itself, so monsters know what'll happen as soon as they are marked.

Intelligence of the monsters is irrelevant to the rules, that is a fluff thing and is up to each individual DM.

 

[shamsael]

In my opinion, given awareness of even the -2 to attacks, the monster will always opt to attack the marking opponent if possible.

If you want to make this a question of creature intelligence, even a predatory animal such as a wolf would be aware that the marking opponent is probably more vulnarable than other opponents, and therefor unlikely to go for an apparently more difficult target.

 

[Dross]

I agree with the above points.

Everyone knows when they are marked, and SHOULD know that if they do not attack the marker in some way it'll be bad for them (whether you do or not would be situation dependant) even if they do not what the effect will be.

I (at least) handle it as one of those things that occur while living in such a universe which everyone has some basic concept of. A "rule of thumb" if you like.

To go back to 3.5 for an example: generally the bigger the critter was (how many squares it covered) was the reach it had. There are exemptions in both directions but in the majority of cases it works.

 

[mkill]

In my opinion, given awareness of even the -2 to attacks, the monster will always opt to attack the marking opponent if possible.

It's no fun for Defender players if marked opponents always attack the marking PC. You never get to use your punishment, everything that matters is that you mark early and often and ramp up defenses and hp.

It's much more rewarding for the player if different monsters show different tactics - intelligent monsters like dragons, wizards or hobgoblin commanders might understand the tactical game the defender is playing, try to avoid him and take down squishier targets first. A stupid monster like a purple worm will attack whatever target is closest or smells more tasty. Monsters could also have reasons beyond tactics to choose their targets - drow will likely attack elves and eladrin first. A casanova type will try to avoid hurting females and attack male threats...

In other words, try to create believable monster actions. Monsters might have a general idea how marks work (that big dude in armor will hurt me if I try to go for the tasty gnome in a fancy dress), but they don't know the mathematics of the game rules.

 

[Ferghis]

I agree with mkill and would give him xp if I weren't on a mobile browser that isn't capable of activating that script.

Back to the point: a DM should trigger defender powers and features. If the DM never does, the defender is technically fulfilling his or her role, but it's pretty boring. The defender would never invest in feats that boost those mark-violation features and powers, no matter how good they might be, because they would never enter play.

I'm not saying that a DM has to trigger the defender powers or features every round, but at least once an encounter is a good goal, at least in my opinion. I wouldn't be strict about it, though.

 

[Nork]

The mechanics of a mark is supposed to represent the concept of a defender being something that isn't easily ignored. I think it should pretty much be taken at face value in that regard.

I would say that across the board that creatures would be aware of "being marked", be it a fighter in their face (angry dude with a big weapon in your face) or a swordmage sending tendrils of magic across the battlefield to harass them (one could imagine a flaming whip of magic in a swormage's off hand that they wrap around the weapon of their marks forcing the targets to struggle to attack anyone other than the swordmage).

I think they would be aware of marks, and whether they violate them or not would depend on how much they want to get at a target besides the defender. More intelligent monsters might make a more calculated decision in that regard.

Defenders marks are meant to be violate and meant to be obeyed. It is up to the defender to make both options equally bad for the monster, and it is up to the defender to not bite off more than they can chew.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Funny picture - kid draws on dog

I think it knows it was marked...but it can't attack at this moment, so its holding initiative.

 

[Havrik Stoneskimmer]

I think that if monsters always obey a defender's mark (or a knight's aura) it's boring for both the defender's player and boring and frustrating for the DM. Static combats where the monsters line up and stay in one place are dull. So I move them around even if it means risking opportunity attacks and other punishment.

Unintelligent monsters may just sit there and fight the enemy that is presenting a big immediate threat, but intelligent creatures (most humanoids) will often risk an opportunity attack and/or an attack penalty to attack someone that is either more vulnerable, a bigger threat, or both (i.e., the rogue or wizard). Especially if the monster realizes it's making no progress against a fighter's plate armor and heavy shield, it will risk getting swatted to go where the odds are better.

And one thing's for sure... I got a lot better at challenging my players when I stopped playing into the knight's game and started going after the thief instead!

 

[TheUltramark]

an out of town friend of mine asked me the question, and it got me thinking

if "Bob" marks the bear but does 8 HP of damage, and Tom the striker mauls the bear for 40 hp of damage, does the bear blindly obey the mark and attack Bob, or does self preservation kick in and the bear attacks Tom.

Since there is no hard and fast rule (right?), I guess it up to the individual DM.

I think if it were me, I would have the bear try and attack Tom the striker, and suffer the penalty. Then again, being sort of new to 4e, and still clinging to 3e and even 2e habits, is that 'swaying me' ?

What say you all?