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Marking

mneme

Explorer
FWIW, I agree that Brash Assault is terrible, and don't see that Hellish Rebuke or Riposte Strike need to not signal what they're doing. They're win/win even as spiders (where the enemy can see them and be scared off by them); if they let themselves be scared off, you don't get attacked; if they don't you get damage and a defender might get a free swipe.

I also don't think this is a good answer to Brash Assault. BA should be lose-lose, not win/win for the monsters. For instance, if it were "... if the target chooses not to make an attack, the next non-enemy creature to attack it gets a +3 power bonus to hit and damage it" then there would be plenty of situations where it was lose-lose.

Let's assume for the moment that the monster's goal is not simply to beat you down -- but to win. And that your goal is not merely to survive, but, again, to win.
 
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keterys

First Post
Oh, sure - nobody said either Brash Assault or Dance of Death were well designed.

And I think that's true whether the enemy knows or doesn't know.
 

eamon

Explorer
How about the following powers:
Hellish Rebuke - If you take damage before the end of your next turn, the target takes an extra 1d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage.
Riposte Strike - If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you make your riposte against the target as an immediate interrupt: a Strength vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.

Is your feeling that the target should have no way to notice the effects of such powers? Is there no change in the target or attacker, in terms of stance or readiness, lingering flames? Do the powers fail to work if they are a deterrent against further attack, rather than a hidden gotcha of the attack?
See, those are good examples ;-).

FWIW, I agree that Brash Assault is terrible, and don't see that Hellish Rebuke or Riposte Strike need to not signal what they're doing.

My feeling is that they both don't need to be traps, but conversely, neither do the need to be known. Let's look into a little more detail.

Both of these powers are weak if the target never had any intention of doing the triggering action in the first place; and if they never had such intention, then it's irrelevant whether the target knows or not.

So, to compensate for the weakness when used in a case in which the trigger wasn't going to go off anyhow, it should be a little stronger in the case that (assuming no foreknowledge) the trigger was going to fire.

In the case of the Hellish Rebuke, other enemies certainly don't know of the effect automatically, so the difference isn't actually very large. After the first time it triggers, I assume the effect is understood, so then the difference isn't large either. If the creature intends to trigger despite knowing what it does, there's no difference. So the difference is very minor: only if the creature was intending to do the triggering action and that creature was the first to trigger it, and if the creature has a better choice if it knows, and if this is the first time it would trigger, and if it actually succeeds to trigger (not on an attack, but on damage) is the difference significant. And the extent of that significance is (worst case) 1/enc 1d6+mods difference.

The story with Riposte strike is different, but has a similar global conclusion: whether the monster knows or not isn't actually a huge deal. In particular, it targets AC, so the target really needs a significant leg up to beat piercing strike.

So in both cases, I think either interpretation is OK. Really fully using Hellish Rebuke probably requires getting damaged in other ways (ongoing damage, zones, weak friendly fire, enticing other creatures to damage you etc.), and if you're doing that, the knowledge question is moot; the trigger will fire fairly quickly and people will understand by virtue of being affected then.

Finally, note that we're talking about the minimal rules-based knowledge creatures get by default. For example, I find it fairly reasonable to assume that creature can see threatening reach; the DMG even gives an example with a fire-aura being noticeable before being affected. So it's not like the DM is forced to withhold knowledge, just that it's not automatic. Knowledge is granted automatically when you're affected (which under this interpretation would exclude the triggers in these powers) but it's also granted whenever it should be reasonably visible.

As to in-game logic, particularly with Hellish rebuke, I find quite plausible that some lingering effect might be felt, but a little less plausible that the exact detail (trigger: when he gets damaged) and exact consequence (1d6+mods) is obvious. So, since the balance is largely moot, I'd pick the interpretation that the target doesn't know since that seems to me to make more in-game sense: he may feel a lingering fire, but not exactly what that fire does; at least until it triggers once.

Well, I would if it'd ever come up ;-). Which it certainly hasn't recently.
 

eamon

Explorer
If the power increases the chance of the warlord dropping, and team monster winning, at the same time that it increases the chance of the monster dropping, and team PC winning, it can be advantageous for both sides.
I don't see how it's possible for it to increase the chance of team monster winning and the chance of team PC winning.

Since monsters tend to have stronger basic attacks than PC's, it sounds like a very risky proposition for the warlord. Either the monster has such a powerful basic attack (generally when it has just one melee attack), in which case it's a clear win for the monster, or it doesn't (generally when its standard attack is a multi-attack the basic attack is weak), in which case it just doesn't take the attack.
 

keterys

First Post
I don't see how it's possible for it to increase the chance of team monster winning and the chance of team PC winning.
It's a matter of perception. If the warlord thinks their basic attack is good (which is _easy_), then killing the monster faster may be worth having to spend some extra surges.

Meantime, the monster is almost invariably doomed. A risky shot against the warlord, in the hopes of being able to drop the warlord and turn the tide? Often worthwhile.

It's not like it's guaranteed X damage vs Y damage and you can compare. It's X damage at Y% hit vs target with Z hp, in return for slightly less damage at much higher % hit vs target with much more hp.

The only time it's obviously a bad idea is when the monster knows the warlord is relatively unhittable (Harlequin Style's been revealed), they're marked (double punishment? No way), or team PC has shown an extraordinary basic attack (rogues, staggering proning combos, etc)

Since monsters tend to have stronger basic attacks than PC's

Not in my experience. There are some that carry dangerous riders and some, such as brutes, that are truly dangerous. But at low level a PC striker might do 17 or so damage to a monster's 9, while at high level it might be something like 40 damage + slow or prone vs 30 damage.

it sounds like a very risky proposition for the warlord.

That is the heart of the bravura style of play, sure.

And, again, it doesn't matter how well designed the power is, to determine how the rules work and/or should work.
 

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