Martial Study Feat

[Shellman]

He's not my character, but he is a tattooed monk7, Psy War2, Warmind1.
Polymorphed into a cave troll, then double expansion. + tiger tattoo + 7 str(item and mind War ability) and greater magic weapon+3.
If the sorcerer casts yet another spell (fires of puriety) that adds +21/hit.
He is a level 15 character.

Scary hey!
Thats why the 2 feats I mensioned looked broken to me.

I'd say that the BoNS is not the problem, its the cheese build this guy is using. Which by the way probably needs a good editing by the DM.

 

[Nifft]

Worse, stances don't scale either, and unlike maneuvers you can't replace them at higher levels.

Some stances scale implicitly, since they modify your attacks (or trigger off of your attacks).

Martial Stance (heal 2 hp per hit) obviously scales with the number of your attacks; similarly, Blood in the Water (+1 to attack and damage per crit) benefits both as you get better at making many attacks and as you get better at threatening & confirming crits.

Those are both 1st level Stances.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

I'd say that the BoNS is not the problem, its the cheese build this guy is using. Which by the way probably needs a good editing by the DM.

Are you talking about the "troll PC" from earlier? I think we've established that the build breaks rules and is Off-Topic to this thread.

...and the book is actually: "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords", which condences down to a not-much-shorter "ToB:Bo9S". Sheesh. Guys, next time agree on the title you use, rather than stringing two or more titles together!

 

[brehobit]

By the time a warblade or swordsage is using the really dangerous things they're 13th level or so--at that level, that kind of damage is neither overpowered nor particularly rare (consider the kind of damage a Wiz13 or Druid13 can dish out).

I'm pretty sure an area 6d6 attack is pretty dangerous at 5th level. And +2d6 damage and ignore DR is pretty dangerous at 3rd level.

That said, my point is that taking these as feats is much less effective than just taking a level in one of the classes. If your DM allows you to take these classes, you should seriously consider that option over taking the feat. For a fighter, it's a clear win.

Mark

 

[Arkhandus]

So while there are a few strike options that _are_ very powerful, there are a few that make sense only if your DM doesn't allow the Bo9S classes.

Naaah.

1) Because you don't want to delay access to higher level spells, but you'd really like a maneuver such as Action Before Thought or Mind Over Body or Shadow Jaunt
2) Because you don't want to delay access to Weapon Specialization or similar
3) Because you want to avoid multiclass XP penalties
4) Because you don't want to delay access to a particular prestige class
5) Because multiclassing out of Paladin is a Bad Thing but you wanted some special attacks to use beyond your occasional and boring Smite Evil
6) Because you don't want to delay access to some Wild Shape benefits or greater animal companions
7) Because multiclassing out of Monk is Sometimes a Bad Thing and yet you needed something, anything, to boost your pitiful damage/AC/attack bonus/whatever.

Swordsage is not overpowered. Crusader and Warblade may be a little, but are primarily just more powerful than the ever-sucky Fighter that has always sucked. There are some overpowered maneuvers that need tweaking, but the classes need little if any tweaking themselves for balance (only one or two minor things about the Crusader or Warblade might possibly deserve a bit of toning down).

 

[EyeontheMountain]

The martial study can be an excellent feat for a fight. If only for a decent class skill alone. Or with a couple of feats, access to a couple of good skills that can aid him into getting into prestige classes, or because something more than just the tank. Even for the class skill, it can be a good feat.

As for maneuvers, it depends on when you take it. The first level maneuver are not that hot, though a few are nice, but when the fighter hits 10th level, he can pick up a 3rd level maneuver and now there are better ones out there. Granted, not a huge power boost, but it can give him some good options, and once per encounter is a lot of use from a feat.

And once you add a stance, you get a serious power boost if you pick the right one, which is not hard to do.

 

[cheshire_grin]

I'm pretty sure an area 6d6 attack is pretty dangerous at 5th level. And +2d6 damage and ignore DR is pretty dangerous at 3rd level.

Except any wizard can do very similar things at very similar levels. A 5th level wizard can do 5d6 with fireball, and that's about the least imaginative option. (And yeah, warblade maneuver recovery etc, but they get a really limited # of maneuvers readied, which makes them a lot less versatile than a wizard or sorcerer of the same level.)

I'm not arguing that they aren't more powerful than a vanilla fighter, just that they aren't overpowered in general.

 

[Nail]

As for maneuvers, it depends on when you take it.

Exactly.

That 6th level Ftr could pick up 2nd level manuevers, for example. Then the Ftr 6 could have (for example):

Emerald Razor: One attack as a touch attack. (EDIT: Missing prereq.)
Wall of Blades: Replace AC with Attack roll
Mountain Hammer: ignore DR and do +2d6 damage
Burning Brand: Add 5 foot reach and fire damage


...etc.

None of those are bad choices for a feat, IMO! And several scale well with level (like Wall of Blades!)




Still, it's usually always better to just take a level of Warblade (or Swordsage). YMMV.


BTW, aren't martial stances also martial manuevers? Couldn't you take a stance with the Martial Study feat?

 

[cheshire_grin]

BTW, aren't martial stances also martial manuevers? Couldn't you take a stance with the Martial Study feat?

They count as stances for the purposes of prereqs (i.e. if you have one IH maneuver and one IH stance, you are counted as having the prereqs for any maneuver that specifies "two IH maneuvers"), but you can't take stances using Martial Study--you have to take the Martial Stance feat instead, which requires that you know at least one maneuver from that school as a prereq.

 

[Arkhandus]

Nope. The introduction says stances are special abilities, not maneuvers but similar. The Blade Magic chapter also declares that stances are not maneuvers. Stances only count as maneuvers for purposes of meeting the prerequisites to learn a new maneuver. Not for any other purposes, not even for any other prerequisites.