Master crafter

[Rystil Arden]

Rystil always makes very convincing arguments. I find myself mostly persuaded already. Personally, though, I find the EK underpowered. And the MC has very little combat prowess, like I've said. That being noted, how about changing the +1 CL's to L2 and L4 for the MC? That deals with both of your contentions.

That will be perfectly reasonable, and the third lost caster level also partially quells my fears of the efficient infinite gold engine with the Trader (though the exploit is 95% the Trader's fault, since the Buy/Sell 90% thing is insane).

I shudder at the thought of Rinaldo replacing Hogarth with a MC cohort

 

[Bront]

That will be perfectly reasonable, and the third lost caster level also partially quells my fears of the efficient infinite gold engine with the Trader (though the exploit is 95% the Trader's fault, since the Buy/Sell 90% thing is insane).

I shudder at the thought of Rinaldo replacing Hogarth with a MC cohort

He doesn't need to replace. Hogarth is a blacksmith.

 

[Rystil Arden]

He doesn't need to replace. Hogarth is a blacksmith.

He would to be efficient or likely--the item creation feat thing, for one, and the accepted by the guild seems very unlikely for Hogarth. With such low Int and Cha, she couldn't really impress a wizardish guild very much. She'd seem a dumb brutish simpleton. Plus MC is a much bigger loss for Cleric than Wizard, and it's too late to get MC at the lowest possible level for Hogarth

 

[B4cchus]

I agree with Rae's modifications:
rewrite increase in CL to reflect the tbale
rewrite competence bonus to CL (where the competence bonus is equal to the MC class level)
modify the 14,000 gp to 5,000 gp
rewrite of the restriction that the imbue enchantment bonus doesn't stack with spells etc.

On the other hand i am very against reducing CL improvement from 3/5 to 2/5.
I think this nerfs the class too much for casters. I really don't like the argument that this stacks too well with the trader pc.
Clearly, the reduced costs for materials won't stack with the trader abilty. A MC gets this discount from his own guild.
I don't see a MC haggling over these already discounted priced with his own guild. I could take this in the desciption of the abilitites.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with Rae's modifications:
rewrite increase in CL to reflect the tbale
rewrite competence bonus to CL (where the competence bonus is equal to the MC class level)
modify the 14,000 gp to 5,000 gp
rewrite of the restriction that the imbue enchantment bonus doesn't stack with spells etc.

On the other hand i am very against reducing CL improvement from 3/5 to 2/5.
I think this nerfs the class too much for casters. I really don't like the argument that this stacks too well with the trader pc.
Clearly, the reduced costs for materials won't stack with the trader abilty. A MC gets this discount from his own guild.
I don't see a MC haggling over these already discounted priced with his own guild. I could take this in the desciption of the abilitites.

What if the MC was also the Trader? What if she wasn't? The issue isn't the Trader's buy price, anyway. I have no problems with buying at 90%. The Trader's ridiculous sell price is a real concern (selling at 90% pretty much breaks balance assumptions on the liquidity of D&D inventory. When you are also buying at the same price and have 100% liquidity, the game becomes very unusual, particularly if you are in the business of crafting--the MC/Trader pair could (even if you disallow buying crafting materials for less) craft items for 40% cost and sell them until they run out of Craft Points to NPCs for 90% cost.

Anyway, the issue is really in the balance of MC and Eldritch Knight. Let's compare:

Eldritch Knight--loses two levels one from 1-6 (usually 1 or 6) one at 7. Can never avoid losing either of those levels for a dip.
MC--loses two levels, at 7 and 9. Can avoid losing any levels with a single-level dip and still get a bit of Imbue and Master Craftsman. A Wizard, who gets Scribe Scroll automatically, gets that PrC level for free beyond the skill point assignment. Can avoid losing the second level by stopping at PrC level 3, gaining a bonus feat and two price deductions (many people would consider this--I don't really like the capstone ability, so the only reason to take the second caster level hit is to grab the increasing power of Imbue).

Eldritch Knight--d6 HD
MC--d6 HD

Eldritch Knight--Fighter BAB
MC--Cleric BAB

Eldritch Knight--1 bonus feat
MC--2 bonus feats

Eldritch Knight--1 good save
MC--1 good save

Eldritch Knight--Takes up 10 levels, so you lose out on 10 other PrC levels, two bonus feats, etc
MC--Takes up 5 levels, so you lose out on 5 other PrC levels, one bonus feat, etc

Eldritch Knight--nothing else (despite having 10 levels)
MC--Master Craftsman, Imbue Item, Guild Member, Resourceful Crafter, Eldritch Crafter, Cerebral Crafter (all in those 5 levels)

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I maintain that the EK is underpowered. Try comparing this to the Arcane Trickster. He gets full spell progression and full sneak attack progression, along with Impromptu Sneak Attack and Ranged Legerdemain (pretty good abilities, if you ask me). A wiz/sorc character does need to take 3 levels of Rogue to meet the prereqs, but those are 3 non-trivial levels of a good, balanced class, and by no means a "throw away".

What if the HD was dropped to d4 and the BAB was dropped to Wiz/Sorc? That would make the MC more like a wizard focused on magical crafting, not so much a warrior.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I maintain that the EK is underpowered. Try comparing this to the Arcane Trickster. He gets full spell progression and full sneak attack progression, along with Impromptu Sneak Attack and Ranged Legerdemain (pretty good abilities, if you ask me). A wiz/sorc character does need to take 3 levels of Rogue to meet the prereqs, but those are 3 non-trivial levels of a good, balanced class, and by no means a "throw away".

What if the HD was dropped to d4 and the BAB was dropped to Wiz/Sorc? That would make the MC more like a wizard focused on magical crafting, not so much a warrior.

It's true that Arcane Trickster the PrC has pretty good abilities, but you have to remember that you lose casting at three early levels from 1 to 8 and only start in the PrC at level 9. Most builds either lose casting at 6, 7, and 8 (these are the caster heavy builds) or somewhere along the lines of 1, 2, and 4 (these take advantage of Practised Caster to make a nasty Shocking Grasp Sneak Attack build and also get more skill points at level 1). These both significantly stunt the caster before she starts getting anything out of it. In that sense, it is equally stunting as Mystic Theurge, but it does so for two levels longer. Arcane Trickster would be a great PrC if it required level 2 Arcane Spells, but since it requires level 3 (and thus the first level you can ever take it is 9), it takes way too long to deliver the goods and help you catch up. Admittedly, if you do stick the game out to level 18, it's pretty darn good, but MC delivers 100% of the goods by level 10.

 

[B4cchus]

RA: To continue on your EK /MC comparison:
- first off, i agree with Rea in the fact that EK is underopowered. Ever looked at classes such as ordained champion or abjurant champion?
- the bonus feats from EK are fighter bonus feats. The MC can only choose from a item creation feat, skill focus or talented crafter. Not even Metamagics like a wizard can.
- the entry requirements from EK are not very steep. At worst two levels in fighter*, at best one level (just start later). MC requires three skills at 8 ranks and a feat.
*or any other class that grants good bab and weapon proficy, like 2 levels paladin and get your cha to all your saves as a kicker, very nice for sorcerers.
- Dropping out of MC at level three costs you: 2 imbue points, a feat and (in my opinion) the capstone ability: eldritch/cerebral crafter.

In conclusion, i don't think it is a very good comparison to take a gish PrC and compare it to the MC. MC is not a 'multiclass' Prc as the EK or AT. A comparison between those two, like Rea said, also points out the EK as underpowered.
-ther EK does not take 10 levels. There is no reason to not drop out earlier in favor of other PrC's. It only grants you more hp and BaB, no capstones which require you to stay in longer.
-the comparison that MC grants extra abilities and MC does is an invalid argument alltogether in my opinion. In such a view the only balanced class would be a cleric or sorcerer, since those are the only ones that does not grant anything aside caster increase (and turn undead) and we all know that is hardly the case.

 

[Rystil Arden]

- first off, i agree with Rea in the fact that EK is underopowered. Ever looked at classes such as ordained champion or abjurant champion?

Is Ordained Champion in Complete Champion? Everything I've seen in that book is absurd. Abjurant Champion has a few decently munchy abilities, but at least it is designed for the much-weaker Fighter-heavy Fighter/Mage. If you play it RAW, where it doesn't affect Mage Armour because the author screwed up, it's a bit less dangerous. I figured you'd compare to something more similar to EK though--Knight Phantom.

- the entry requirements from EK are not very steep. At worst two levels in fighter*, at best one level (just start later). MC requires three skills at 8 ranks and a feat.

The feat requirement of MC is not a requirement for the Wizard class. Only the skill rank requirement really exists.

- Dropping out of MC at level three costs you: 2 imbue points, a feat and (in my opinion) the capstone ability: eldritch/cerebral crafter.

If Eldritch/Cerebral Crafter was really the capstone ability, I would have no trouble with this class, even if it just missed a single caster level (say, just the first one, to discourage dipping). The trouble is that the class's true capstone is getting another imbue point, and the second-best abilities are the ones that make all crafting cheaper twice. Eldritch Crafter is cool, useful, and not overpowered.

-ther EK does not take 10 levels. There is no reason to not drop out earlier in favor of other PrC's. It only grants you more hp and BaB, no capstones which require you to stay in longer.

If you drop out earlier, you lose even more of the advantage, though, and you pay the full price. Frex--let's say you drop out of EK at level 5, same PrC level as MC ends. For your money (and your two caster levels), you've gained a bonus feat, +3 additional BAB over Wizard, and +5 HP over Wizard. The MC will have gained two bonus feats, +1 additional BAB over Wizard, +5 HP over Wizard, and all the other specials (which include imbue weapon enhancements that will more than make up for the +2 BAB advantage that the EK has over the MC if you use them on your own blade). If you don't stick EK out to the end, MC is actually a better Fighter/Mage than the EK

-the comparison that MC grants extra abilities and MC does is an invalid argument alltogether in my opinion. In such a view the only balanced class would be a cleric or sorcerer, since those are the only ones that does not grant anything aside caster increase (and turn undead) and we all know that is hardly the case.

Extra abilities aren't what makes the class overpowered--extra abilities that can't be balanced against something else that another such class has make the class unbalanced against the other class. For example, if the Barbarian had an equal number of (or even one or less) feats as Fighter and also had all the Barbarian abilities, I would complain that the Barbarian is overpowered compared to Fighter due to having the same feats and more HP, skill points, and extra abilities above and beyond the Fighter.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I don't see why the MC has 1d6 HD or cleric BAB. He's not a fighter at all, he spends his time in the workshop. Dropping both of those to Wiz but leaving spell progression as is should satisfy both RA and B4cchus, right?