Master crafter

[Rystil Arden]

I don't see why the MC has 1d6 HD or cleric BAB. He's not a fighter at all, he spends his time in the workshop. Dropping both of those to Wiz but leaving spell progression as is should satisfy both RA and B4cchus, right?

I would also prefer to see the dropped spell levels as 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4. Nothing of significant power is gained at levels 4 or 5 beyond an increase in imbue points.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I think that's reasonable. Can we confirm that MC is going to be an excellent crafter now? He's giving up some firepower for all this crafting stuff. B4cchus, perhaps you could compare a character with a few levels of MC vs. a straight wizard crafter and we'll make sure that the MC is significantly better? One thing we must be wary of is turning the MC into a PrC that no PC would want to take. Cepheus is already interested in taking it, obviously for the crafting abilities, but if we nerf it too much, the character becomes uncompetitive in adventures.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I think that's reasonable. Can we confirm that MC is going to be an excellent crafter now? He's giving up some firepower for all this crafting stuff. B4cchus, perhaps you could compare a character with a few levels of MC vs. a straight wizard crafter and we'll make sure that the MC is significantly better? One thing we must be wary of is turning the MC into a PrC that no PC would want to take. Cepheus is already interested in taking it, obviously for the crafting abilities, but if we nerf it too much, the character becomes uncompetitive in adventures.

We haven't hurt the crafting ability, fortunately. I think the only nerfs are to HD and BAB, plus changing when you pay the piper on spells, but not increasing it. It still gets strictly 1 more craft feat than you could pick up by taking those five levels in Wizard, +3 to effective level for prereqs, the ability to emulate prereqs, and -20% on costs of all magic items (not quite as good as having the feat Magical Artisan (which applies to only one item type) for every item type). And craft skill bonuses. And that's just the crafting abilities. It also has imbue.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, here's a more complex analysis of who can craft what when (assuming my change to the levels that are skipped):

Level 6: MC and Wizard both can make items that require 3th-level spells, both can meet CL 6 requirements.

Level 7: Wizard can make items that require 4th-level spells but can only meet CL 7 requirements, MC has an extra feat, can make items that require 3rd-level spells, and can meet CL 8 requirements

Level 8: Wizard can make items that require 4th-level spells but can only meet CL 8 requirements, MC has an extra feat, can make items that require 3rd-level spells, and can meet CL 9 requirements

Level 9: Wizard can make items that require 5th-level spells but can only meet CL 9 requirements, MC has two extra feats, can make items that require 4rd-level spells, and can meet CL 11 requirements.

Level 10: Wizard can make items that require 5th-level spells but can only meet CL 10 requirements, MC has one extra feat, can make items that require 4rd-level spells, can emulate anything else in existence, including psionics, and can meet CL 13 requirements.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

The wizard still gets his L10 Wiz Bonus Feat. Also, my understanding of Cerebral Caster is that it only allows psionic crafters to emulate psionic abilities, ie. a wizard with MC levels can't use Cerebral Crafter at all.

Also: Is there a CL requirement to craft things? I'm not familiar with the craft rules at all. But I remember there being some discussion about that in the Gen thread.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The wizard still gets his L10 Wiz Bonus Feat. Also, my understanding of Cerebral Caster is that it only allows psionic crafters to emulate psionic abilities, ie. a wizard with MC levels can't use Cerebral Crafter at all.

Also: Is there a CL requirement to craft things? I'm not familiar with the craft rules at all. But I remember there being some discussion about that in the Gen thread.

Ah, I didn't see the psi-feat prereq. Good call.

There is indeed a CL requirement for a few items, when specifically stated as a requirement (like with weapon enhancement bonuses), but most items with a listed CL do not have it as a requirement.

Here's an interesting thought--if the Eldritch/Cerebral Crafter is indeed the capstone, why not remove Imbue and make the MC lose only a single caster level over the course of the class? I would easily allow that, and the focus on the actual crafting side stays the same, while the price to pay is halved.

 

[Rae ArdGaoth]

After all that work we did on Imbue? =P It's a complicated and somewhat clumsy feature, 'tis true. It also makes the PrC a lot like the Artificer of Eberron, not something I'm thrilled with. But I do think it's a fairly balanced ability, so I leave the choice up to B4cchus.

If we do remove Imbue, what about the BAB and the HD? Should they stay as they are (d6 and Cleric) or be dropped to Wiz? Part of the reasoning for dropping the BAB was that Imbue kind of allowed the MC to turn his BAB into many different forms (special abilities, enhancements on allies' weapons, etc.), so removing II means his effective attack bonus drops as well.

 

[B4cchus]

I can live with the reduction in BAB and HD. The HD wis intedended as a middle way between clerics and wizards. The BAB, well, i just started off with that and never got around evaluating it.

I still don't want to nerf the spellcasting. I think very little people will be interested if it granted 2/5th progression, including me. I'd rather nerf other abilities tan this. Two levels of spellcasting is already a complete spell level lower than a straight caster.

about the cost reduction: i think i have written this part unclear: it grats a 10% on MATERIAL costs, not base price. That results in a total of 20% reduction on materials, which is half base price. Thus the total result of both abilities is a 10% reduction on the Base (amrket) price.

What if we change the feat requirement, for example excluding scribe scroll? This way the wizard doesn't get an automatic ticket in. I realy overlooked the free scribe scroll feat wizards get when i wroet this requirement...

On Ra's more complex comparison:
at level 10 the MC has only 1 extra feat (wizard gets a bonus feat at 10th level) and a MC can't rightout emulate both magic and psionics unless he dips in both spellcasting and psionics, which drop his max CL for requirements.
The comparison is rather single sided (from the crafting pov.) A comparison of spellpower would swing the other way, at 2 CL's higher and 2 metamagic feats more.

 

[B4cchus]

Ah, I didn't see the psi-feat prereq. Good call.

There is indeed a CL requirement for a few items, when specifically stated as a requirement (like with weapon enhancement bonuses), but most items with a listed CL do not have it as a requirement.

Here's an interesting thought--if the Eldritch/Cerebral Crafter is indeed the capstone, why not remove Imbue and make the MC lose only a single caster level over the course of the class? I would easily allow that, and the focus on the actual crafting side stays the same, while the price to pay is halved.

Altough removing imbue item seems like a easy solution.. I hear Rae's call on the amount of work put into it.. and it's cool! I'll think of nerfing it.. but first i'd like some more opinions on the power level of the whole thing except yours and Rea's (although i do appreciate the efford you're putting into this!) Anybody?

 

[Rystil Arden]

After all that work we did on Imbue? =P It's a complicated and somewhat clumsy feature, 'tis true. It also makes the PrC a lot like the Artificer of Eberron, not something I'm thrilled with.

I was never really thrilled with the enhancement imbues in Eberron either. It is balanced somewhat by the Artificer's inability to get infusions over level 6, by the material component price of the Artificer weapon enhance infusions, and by the Artificer's lack of direct damage and total focus on buffs (about which the MC doesn't have to worry), but having the correct Bane weapon is like having a +4 equivalent gain (the +2 enhancement bonus and the 2d6 extra damage), and pulling out Ghost Touch when needed is quite useful too. Kharas, Velmont's level 2 Artificer in LEB, fought and defeated consecutively the following encounters due to always knowing which infusions he needed and getting Bane and Ghost Touch--2 CR 3 enemies at once, a different 2 CR 3 enemies at once, 1 CR 2 enemy, 1 big CR 3 bruiser.

still don't want to nerf the spellcasting. I think very little people will be interested if it granted 2/5th progression, including me.

I'm not calling for an extra lost level. I'm calling for moving the lost levels to 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4. This prevents abuse.

What if we change the feat requirement, for example excluding scribe scroll? This way the wizard doesn't get an automatic ticket in. I realy overlooked the free scribe scroll feat wizards get when i wroet this requirement...

That does make it not a total freebie. Of course, the Wiz5 does get that bonus feat, and Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Arms and Armour are both tempting feats that fulfill the prereq that the Wizard will never regret having. If you want to make the prereq something that the character will actually feel in the morning, consider Skill Focus (Craft [Any]).