May Rules Update

[DracoSuave]

I may be late to this soiree, but... um... its not? I think this is the key point in the ruling.

a) CLW grants healing as if the target spent a surge, but a surge is not actually spent.

b) Healers Lore triggers when a cleric power enables a target to spend a healing surge.

a + b = Healer's Lore does not apply to CLW.



I agree with keterys in that I think you are reading too much into this one.

Mirtek's got what I'm trying to say.

It's not that I disagree with the ruling, it's that the ruling now makes OTHER things break.

The other (and probably better fix) is to cause Healer's Lore to specify explicitly that it does not grant the hit points when a surge is not spent.

As it is, effects that treat things as if something else happen DO trigger that something else. Yes, other healing surge triggers don't trigger, because Cure Light Wounds is specific in HOW it's treated: You regain hitpoints as if... which means that additional saving throws, etc, aren't applicable. But anything to do with regaining hit points IS. And Healer's Lore is 100% absolutely a 'regaining hit points' effect.

The correct and elegant solution would be an additional 'You must actually spend a healing surge for this to take place; effects that mimic a spent healing surge will not benefit from this' on the end which solves the problem succinctly.

 

[keterys]

As it is, effects that treat things as if something else happen DO trigger that something else. Yes, other healing surge triggers don't trigger, because Cure Light Wounds is specific in HOW it's treated: You regain hitpoints as if... which means that additional saving throws, etc, aren't applicable. But anything to do with regaining hit points IS. And Healer's Lore is 100% absolutely a 'regaining hit points' effect.

So's a Battle Standard of Healing - it makes you regain hit points. But when you use Cure Light Wounds on a guy, and he goes 'Oh, do I get a hp from the battle standard cause I regain hp as if I spent a healing surge, and it makes me regain hp?' the cleric goes 'No, you didn't spend a surge.'

Replace Battle Standard with Healer's Lore, now, apparently.

If the _target_ has a thing that says 'Add your constitution bonus (or item bonus, or whatever) to the amount of hp you regain when you spend a healing surge' then that would actually apply. Since it's 'as if they had spent a surge'.

 

[Artoomis]

Are you arguing that if Healer's Lore said:
'When you use a cleric healing power where the target spends a surge, they get a saving throw with a bonus equal to your Wisdom modifier'
that they'd get a saving throw from Cure Light Wounds?

Or, to make it even more interesting:
Do you believe that a Battle Standard of Healing heals everyone in a group when Cure Light Wounds is used on someone?

If so, I believe you're quite wrong.
If not, then I don't understand why you think this breaks the game.

Either way, I think you're reading either too much or too little into this argument.

Oh, please. That is a archetypal red herring, because CLW grants "The target regains hit points as if it had spent a healing surge."

Only the TARGET gets HIT POINTS as if it had spent a healing surge.

Other effects of spending a healing surge are outside the scope of CLW because they have nothing to do with the number of hit points granted.

 

[keterys]

Actually, I wanted to be _really_ sure he didn't believe either of those things. Because if you do, you're right out of the conversation.

At which point, you're trying to establish the dividing line for imitation.

Corellon's Implement says "Corellon’s Implement (11th level): Choose an arcane implement that you specialize in, whether the wand, staff, or orb. You can use a longsword as if it were that type of arcane implement when casting your spells." and some people will allow you to count it as a staff, and then use "Staff of Defense" wizard class feature to gain a defense bonus. Even though, it's not a staff, and they're not casting a spell. Some won't. There's table variation. Even before Healer's Lore, just because of the words "when casting your spells"

Just like there now will be with Healer's Lore.

And the game _won't break_.

 

[keterys]

It may be easier to think of it as order of operations:

PC's got a feat that gives +2 feat bonus to damage with powers that deal fire damage.

Creature has a power that allows it to convert damage that hit it, into fire damage from whatever it was before.

PC throws a Ray of Frost at the Creature, dealing 10 damage. Creature converts that into fire damage. It does not suddenly gain the +2 bonus to damage that PC gets when his powers deal fire damage.

Because his power didn't deal fire on examination or at cast, even though it eventually effectively did.

Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds, sees what applies. Hmm, some stuff doesn't, cause it's only on stuff when a healing surge is spent and the power doesn't spend a surge, so that feat doesn't apply to it.

He then tells the target 'Hey, regain hp as if you spent a surge, but don't actually spend the surge'.

Out of curiosity, if you had a splufty feat: 'When you use a healing power where the target does not spend a surge, the target regains an additional Wisdom modifier hp' would that _also_ apply to CLW, in your theory?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The correct and elegant solution would be an additional 'You must actually spend a healing surge for this to take place; effects that mimic a spent healing surge will not benefit from this' on the end which solves the problem succinctly.

When you let a creature spend a healing surge to regain hit points with one of your cleric powers that has the healing keyword,...

Ya see, this is where I get confused. Semantically your correct and elegant solution is the same as the WoTC update....

I don't see this breaking any other 'as if..' rules either. I actually see this as enforcing the 'as if..' mechanic. Just like with "Corellon's Implement" there is a 'gain ability X when condition Z'

With Corellon's Implement you get to "treat a sword as a staff implement" when "casting spells".
With Healer's lore you get "add bonus HPs" when "target spends a surge".

If the caster isn't casting a spell, the sword doesnt count as a staff implement.
If the target does not spend a surge, you don't grant bonus HPs.

But maybe I am off base and ned to brush up on my grammer...

 

[Istar]

Okay level 6 Half Elf rogue effectively retired, now its a definite penalty to be one.
And in fact they also nerfed Blood Iron Dagger.
Only took them 2 updates to the weapon this year to get it right, which is a bit slack in my mind.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Okay level 6 Half Elf rogue effectively retired, now its a definite penalty to be one.
And in fact they also nerfed Blood Iron Dagger.
Only took them 2 updates to the weapon this year to get it right, which is a bit slack in my mind.

Can´t see te penalty of beeing a half elf rogue, sorry...

not optimal, ok... but a penalty?

with 18 dex, 15 cha and 15 con or 16 cha, 13 con you can hardly say it is a bad atribute array... take a good dilletant at will instead of one you only took to abuse 10 levels later and you are doing fine...

 

[Istar]

Can´t see te penalty of beeing a half elf rogue, sorry...

not optimal, ok... but a penalty?

with 18 dex, 15 cha and 15 con or 16 cha, 13 con you can hardly say it is a bad atribute array... take a good dilletant at will instead of one you only took to abuse 10 levels later and you are doing fine...

Lol

Tell me one good at-will then that does better than a rogue one with 18 to 20 crit range ?

The monk burst 1 at-will ?

 

[Peraion Graufalke]

Instead of looking at the half-elf's Dilettante ability as a way to increase your damage you could see it as a way to increase your versatility, e.g. if you find yourself in a situation where your rogue at-wills won't help you or your party much. Inescapable Blade and Executioner's Noose (Assassin) are worth looking at in case your rogue is immobilized, whereas Focusing Strike (Ardent) is good for a Cha-secondary rogue if one of your allies is stunned or dominated.