mixing manufactured and natural weapons

[Bad Paper]

I recently asked a question vaguely related to this, but didn't quite learn very much from it. Lets try something specific. First, the setting:

Two clawed arms grow out of the subject's body... The arms grant the subject two primary claw attacks... Since the claws are primary attacks, you can attack with them in addition to making your weapon attacks without penalty...

and

Two short but powerful tentacles sprout from your waist. You gain two tentacle natural attacks... The tentacle attacks are treated as primary weapons. You can attack with weapons and also make tentacle attacks, but your tentacle attacks are treated as secondary weapons: The attacks are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll...

So far these seem contradictory. Now. Let's assume a melee attack bonus of +5, and the attacker has the Deepspawn feat and Arms of Plenty running. And what the heck, let's throw in Haste. What are the full attacks if the attacker is:
1) wielding a greataxe?
2) a flurrying monk? [two attacks for simplicity]
3) grappling?

For #3, I don't think the Arms of Plenty let you grapple, but they should let you make attacks.

I really can't figure this out. If the attacker has Multiattack, does it apply to the tentacles but not to the Arms of Plenty spell?

My guesses are:
1) +5 greataxe/+5 greataxe/+5 claw/+5 claw/+0 tentacle/+0 tentacle
2) +5 claw/+5 claw/+3 punch/+3 punch/+0 tentacle/+0 tentacle
3) four grapples at +5 then +1 claw/+1 claw

thanks for your help!

 

[Starglim]

So far these seem contradictory.

They are not contradictory, they are different. In both cases the rule being applied is the same (edit):

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

edit: Arms of Plenty is an explicit exception to this rule, therefore the "creature's description indicates otherwise".


If the creature only attacked with Deepspawn tentacles plus Arms of Plenty, all its attacks would be primary attacks giving it +5 claw/+5 claw/+5 tentacle/+5 tentacle.

1) I agree
2) Monk attacks and natural weapons are a wider subject that I won't attempt to tangle with.
3) If you are grappling you get your normal iterative attacks as grapple manoeuvres. You cause grapple damage equal to your natural attacks. In this case you could choose to do either claw damage or tentacle damage on a successful grapple check. 1 grapple check, +5 plus STR mod plus special size mod, damage is either claw or tentacle damage at your option.

If the attacker has Multiattack, does it apply to the tentacles but not to the Arms of Plenty spell?

If the attacker has Multiattack, it applies to all its natural weapons where relevant. Multiattack would reduce the penalties for using the tentacles with weapons to -2. It would have no effect on the Arms of Plenty as they are always primary attacks.

If the creature only had Deepspawn, Multiattack, a greataxe and was Hasted, its full attack would be +5 greataxe/+5 greataxe/+3 tentacle/+3 tentacle.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So far these seem contradictory.

They could be read as such, yes.

The Arms of Plenty spell grants a primary natural attack.

Any natural attack may be mixed with manufactured weapons (barring those which depend upon a hand that's currently holding something). When this is done, there's no penalty on the manufactured weapons' attacks.

There remains, however, a -5 penalty on the attack rolls with the natural weapons, because they are treated as secondary natural weapons when mixed with manufactured weapons.

So, yes, there's no penalty on your manufactured attacks if you use the spell, but there is a penalty on your claw attacks.

Does that make sense?

Now. Let's assume a melee attack bonus of +5, and the attacker has the Deepspawn feat and Arms of Plenty running. And what the heck, let's throw in Haste. What are the full attacks if the attacker is:

Ah, my specialty!

1) wielding a greataxe?

A greataxe is a manufactured weapon. Accordingly, he gets the following options:

1. Man. Weapon: Greataxe +5 1d12+X
2. Nat. Weapon: 2 Claws +5 XdX+X, 2 Tentacles +5 XdX+X
3. Mixed Weapons: Greataxe +5 Xd12+X, 2 Claws +0 XdX+.5X, 2 Tentacles +0 XdX+.5X

Note that, if he's just attacking with Nat. Weapons, they're all considered primary. If he's mixing them, then the GA is primary, and all Nat. Weapons are treated as secondary.

2) a flurrying monk? [two attacks for simplicity]

I assume you mean two attacks when flurrying (and I'll assume at -2 / -2)?

He therefore gets the following options:

1. Man. Weapon: Unarmed Strike +5 1d6+X
2. Nat. Weapon: 2 Claws +5 XdX+X, 2 Tentacles +5 XdX+X
3. Mixed Weapons: Unarmed Strike +5 Xd12+X, 2 Claws +0 XdX+.5X, 2 Tentacles +0 XdX+.5X
4. Flurry: Unarmed Strike +3 / +3 1d6+X

3) grappling?

When grappling, things don't work like normal. Keep in mind that you cannot gain multiple attacks with a natural weapon due to a high BAB. Note, also, that "Attack your Opponent" uses one attack based off of your BAB.

Accordingly, when grappled, you have the option of using any single natural weapon, or a light weapon, or an unarmed strike - and you only get one, since your BAB isn't high enough to get more. So:

• Man. Weapon: Unarmed Strike +1 1d3+X
• Nat. Weapon 1: Claw +1 1dX+X
• Nat. Weapon 2: Tentacle +1 1dX+X

[Edit: Also, remember the -4 penalty to attacks when your are attacking someone who's grappling you.]

For #3, I don't think the Arms of Plenty let you grapple, but they should let you make attacks.

I'm not sure what you mean by that - do they have reach, or something?

I really can't figure this out. If the attacker has Multiattack, does it apply to the tentacles but not to the Arms of Plenty spell?

If he has the Multiattack feat, it normally applies to none of his natural weapons, because they are all primary natural weapons. However as soon as he decides to mix in manufactured weapons, his natural attacks become secondary, and the feat kicks in, reducing the penalty for *all* of his natural attacks to -2.

Here's the interesting thing about the Haste spell:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

So, basically, Haste doesn't apply to anyone striking unarmed or with natural weapons.

That's probably silly, though, so we'll assume that what they really meant was "one additional attack per round with any weapon you've got."

In which case, you get to pick any single weapon in any of the full attack sequences above and make a single additional attack at the highest bonus. Note that, for all intents and purposes, "2 Claws" are two distinct weapons.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Bad Paper]

Does that answer your question?

No, now I'm confused. You and Starglim are disagreeing about the Arms of Plenty spell, because the wording is vague. I think, however, that the spell intends for the claw attacks to be made at the primary BAB.

Basically, if you are using a weapon, then all natural attacks are secondary unless specifically stated otherwise. What if I am using a weapon, have natural attacks, and am hasted:can I apply the extra hasted attack to a "secondary" natural attack, but have it keep its primary bonus? Such as if the above character also had wing attacks (or wing claws, or whatever they are called). Would that be..?
+5 axe/+5 claw/+5 claw/+5 wing/+0 tentacle/+0 tentacle/+0 wing/+0 wing

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yes, I think so. Basically, if you are using a weapon, then all natural attacks are secondary unless specifically stated otherwise.

Er, no. When using a manufactured weapon, all natural attacks are treated as secondary (-5 penalty to attacks, only apply .5 Strength mod to damage), even if they would normally be primary natural weapons.

Now, what if I am using a weapon, have natural attacks, and am hasted. Can I apply the extra hasted attack to a "secondary" natural attack, but have it keep its primary bonus?

No. You may apply Haste to your natural weapon (assuming that the Haste spell actually allows for that! ), but doing so still requires the -5 penalty for being a secondary natural weapon.

Such as if the above character also had wing attacks (or wing claws, or whatever they are called). Would that be..?
+5 axe/+5 claw/+5 claw/+5 wing/+0 tentacle/+0 tentacle/+0 wing/+0 wing

First, your claws are treated as secondary natural weapons because you're using an axe, as well.

You have the following weapons available:

• Axe
• 2 Claws (usually Primary)
• 2 Tentacles (usually Primary)
• 2 Wings (always Secondary)

So, a non-hasted full attack using every weapon available to you would look like:

• Axe +5
• 2 Claws (Secondary) +0
• 2 Tentacles (Secondary) +0
• 2 Wings (Secondary) +0

Or, to use your notation:

Axe +5 / Claw +0 / Claw +0 / Tentacle +0 / Tentacle +0 / Wing +0 / Wing +0

If you are hasted, you gain one additional attack. You may therefore add any one of the following:

• Axe +5
• Claw (Secondary) +0
• Tentacle (Secondary) +0
• Wing (Secondary) +0

EDIT:

The reason I disagree with Starglim as regards the Arms of Plenty spell is the following text:

"Since the claws are primary attacks, you can attack with them in addition to making your weapon attacks without penalty..."

This is a bit of rules text that is absolutely meaningless. It claims that because the claws are primary natural weapons, they have a particular trait (in this case, they can be mixed with weapon attacks without penalty). That is not a trait of primary natural weapons, and therefore the sentence does not make sense.

It's akin to me saying, "Since I'm a man, I drive a car." The one does not flow from the other.

If, instead, the spell had said, "The claw attacks provided by this spell are always treated as primary natural weapons, even when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon," then we wouldn't be having this additional discussion.

 

[Bad Paper]

aha. You responded to my post while I was editing said post after rereading your first post...<sigh>

I think that the Arms of Plenty spell implies that they are made without penalty. I limited-wish they would clarify. I shudder to think of what would happen if I emailed WotC. Maybe I should email Baker, Jacobs, and Winter. No, then I would be a PitA.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

See my edit.

 

[Thanee]

Could also be an error with the first spell, or not?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Oh, as an aside: Note that Starglim is incorrect regarding grappling damage.

3) If you are grappling you get your normal iterative attacks as grapple manoeuvres. You cause grapple damage equal to your natural attacks. In this case you could choose to do either claw damage or tentacle damage on a successful grapple check. 1 grapple check, +5 plus STR mod plus special size mod, damage is either claw or tentacle damage at your option.

When you are grappling, and make a grapple check to inflict damage, you do damage equivalent to an unarmed strike (which, for most medium creatures, is 1d3 nonlethal bludgeoning).

You do not do natural weapon damge in a grapple unless you choose the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action (and uses an attack roll vs AC), which is distinct from the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple action (which uses opposed grapple checks), which SG seems to be referencing above.

 

[Bad Paper]

Response from WotC

Whether this is official or not, you can decide, but here is what Trevor of Wizards Customer Support had to say on the subject. First, the exact text of my email, so that we can all be on the same page.

In Lords of Madness there is a spell called Arms of Plenty. The text of the spell includes this phrase: "Since the claws are primary attacks, you can attack with them in addition to making your weapon attacks without penalty..."

This is unclear; it appears to break a rule. Is it implying that "The claw attacks provided by this spell are always treated as primary weapons, even when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon?" Or is it simply saying that "You get two primary natural attacks?"

The difference is in whether there is a penalty applied to the attack, like +5 axe / +5 claw / +5 claw, or +5 axe / +0 claw / +0 claw. In every circumstance in the game, mixing manufactured and natural weapons causes a penalty on the natural-weapon attacks. Does this spell break that rule?

Note that I quoted Patryn verbatim. Now, the response:

It is a bit confusing and misleading. All the entry is really saying is that you get your normal attack based on your base attack progression, and then you will also get the claw attacks granted by Arms of Plenty.So you would get your attacks based on your base attack progression without penalty, and then you would get two claw attacks without penalty as well.

I get the feeling that he simply pulled this answer out of thin air, without consulting anyone, but hmm! It looks like Arms of Plenty is an exception to that rule!

The reason I am pursuing this is that I am more apt to believe this is an exception, simply because it's a spell, and that's what spells do: they provide exceptions. Maybe if this were a second-level spell (Alter Self, anyone?) I wouldn't believe it. But a third-level 1 round/casterlevel spell seems like it would provide this kind of effect.