mixing manufactured and natural weapons

[seans23]

None of this matters much when you have a Duergar's waraxe planted squarely in your skull and there's a barghest feeding on your aberrant corpse.


Love,
Your DM

 

[Bad Paper]

None of this matters much when you have a Duergar's waraxe planted squarely in your skull and there's a barghest feeding on your aberrant corpse.

But it matters when you consider what's the prototype and what's the working version.

Love,
Your DM

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Whether this is official or not, you can decide, but here is what Trevor of Wizards Customer Support had to say on the subject.

CustServ is ... flaky ... when it comes to rules interpretations.

First, the exact text of my email, so that we can all be on the same page.Note that I quoted Patryn verbatim.

Thanks!

and then you will also get the claw attacks granted by Arms of Plenty.So you would get your attacks based on your base attack progression without penalty, and then you would get two claw attacks without penalty as well

ARGH!!!

I get the feeling that he simply pulled this answer out of thin air, without consulting anyone,

Or even his books, for that matter!

but hmm! It looks like Arms of Plenty is an exception to that rule!

Nah. It looks like the maybe meant it to be an exception to that rule, but messed up the implementation so that it isn't really.

Feel free, however, to decide that what you think they meant it to be is what it really says! It's encouraged behaviour, once you've figured out what it really says.

The reason I am pursuing this is that I am more apt to believe this is an exception, simply because it's a spell, and that's what spells do: they provide exceptions.

I can see that, too, and it would make sense - they just need to clean up their writing a bit.

So, to wrap up, here's what you get when you're wielding an axe, hasted, with the spell, the feat, and a set of wing buffett attacks as a full attack action, assuming they really, really meant the spell to be an exception:

Axe +5 / Claw +5 / Claw +5 / Tentacle +0 / Tentacle +0 / Wing +0 / Wing +0

And, since you're hasted, pick any single one of the above and add it to the list again. Note that your tentacle and wing attacks only get .5X your Strength bonus to damage, because they're secondary natural attacks. You get your full Strength bonus to damage with your claws, because they're still primary.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

When grappling, do you get iterative attacks even if you would not normally gain iterative attacks from high BAB (i.e., just using natural weapons)?
Does a Dire Bear gain multiple grapple checks per round since its BAB is +9?

If not, and you only gain the iterative grapple checks if using a manufactured weapon, then a pit fiend weilding a dagger gains multiple grapple checks per round and a pit fiend without a dagger does not.

It obviously isn't the case that you gain iterative grapple checks equal to your normal number of attacks if your number of attacks is increased due to natural weapons.

 

[Bad Paper]

It looks like the maybe meant it to be an exception to that rule, but messed up the implementation so that it isn't really.

On page 211 of the Fiend Folio is a fiendish graft called a flexible arm, that allows what is apparently a primary attack without penalty:

...the grafted creature can direct the arm to make one natural attack per round, using the grafted creature's base attack bonus and Strength modifier. This attack is in addition to the grafted creature's normal actions in a round. A successful attack deals damage based on the grafted creature's size plus its Strength bonus...

I note that one of the requirements for this rather pricey graft is Haste, so this could be seen as a funky artifact of that spell. Then again, Arms of Plenty is the same level as Haste, and only works on one creature, so hmm! I consider that corroboration.

And as far as Brother MacLaren's question, I would say yes, but I haven't run into that situation yet. I look forward to it.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

You do not do natural weapon damge in a grapple unless you choose the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action (and uses an attack roll vs AC), which is distinct from the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple action (which uses opposed grapple checks), which SG seems to be referencing above.

When you grapple, you do damage according to the natural weapon used to start the grapple. For most humanoids, this would be unarmed strike damage. A creature grappling with a bite or claw would do bite or claw damage.

The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack.

 

[Prism]

When you grapple, you do damage according to the natural weapon used to start the grapple. For most humanoids, this would be unarmed strike damage. A creature grappling with a bite or claw would do bite or claw damage.

Actually that only applies if the creature has the improved grab special ability. For everything else it is simply a factor of the size of the creature. The Rule of the Game article is in error here

 

[glass]

The Rule of the Game article is in error here

This is becoming the Rules Forum mantra.


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

When grappling, do you get iterative attacks even if you would not normally gain iterative attacks from high BAB (i.e., just using natural weapons)?
Does a Dire Bear gain multiple grapple checks per round since its BAB is +9?

Yes. Any creature that has a BAB of +6 or better has "multiple attacks per round." It's just that, when using natural weapons, you don't normally get to do anything with them.

When grappling, he has two attacks per round that he can use to perform special grapple actions, just like any other creature with a BAB of +6 or better. So, being a large animal, he could make grapple checks to do 1d4+Strength nonlethal bludgeoning damage (as an unarmed strike for a large creature).

The Dire Bear, however, has the special attack Improved Grab (Claw). Part of the bonus for having this special attack is:

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

So, our Dire Bear, instead of 1d4 + Strength nonlethal bludgeoning damage, gets to do normal claw damage: 2d4+10 slashing / piercing lethal damage. He'll do this damage any time he chooses the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple action and beats his opponent's grapple check.

He could, instead, choose the "Attack Your Opponent" action, and make an attack with a light or natural weapon. Doing so carries with it a -4 penalty, but in this case he need only hit his opponent's armor class. Note that he can never gain iterative attacks due to high BAB with natural weapons, so he can choose this option only once per combat round.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yeah, that rules of the game article is completely borked.

What does "The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons." even mean? It's nonsense.