But it matters when you consider what's the prototype and what's the working version.seans23 said:None of this matters much when you have a Duergar's waraxe planted squarely in your skull and there's a barghest feeding on your aberrant corpse.
Bad Paper said:Whether this is official or not, you can decide, but here is what Trevor of Wizards Customer Support had to say on the subject.
First, the exact text of my email, so that we can all be on the same page.Note that I quoted Patryn verbatim.
WOTC said:and then you will also get the claw attacks granted by Arms of Plenty.So you would get your attacks based on your base attack progression without penalty, and then you would get two claw attacks without penalty as well
I get the feeling that he simply pulled this answer out of thin air, without consulting anyone,
but hmm! It looks like Arms of Plenty is an exception to that rule!
The reason I am pursuing this is that I am more apt to believe this is an exception, simply because it's a spell, and that's what spells do: they provide exceptions.
On page 211 of the Fiend Folio is a fiendish graft called a flexible arm, that allows what is apparently a primary attack without penalty:Patryn of Elvenshae said:It looks like the maybe meant it to be an exception to that rule, but messed up the implementation so that it isn't really.
I note that one of the requirements for this rather pricey graft is Haste, so this could be seen as a funky artifact of that spell. Then again, Arms of Plenty is the same level as Haste, and only works on one creature, so hmm! I consider that corroboration.Fiend Folio said:...the grafted creature can direct the arm to make one natural attack per round, using the grafted creature's base attack bonus and Strength modifier. This attack is in addition to the grafted creature's normal actions in a round. A successful attack deals damage based on the grafted creature's size plus its Strength bonus...
Patryn of Elvenshae said:You do not do natural weapon damge in a grapple unless you choose the "Attack Your Opponent" grapple action (and uses an attack roll vs AC), which is distinct from the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple action (which uses opposed grapple checks), which SG seems to be referencing above.
Rules of the Game said:The monster uses its listed grapple bonus when attacking with a primary natural weapon (or weapons) and its listed grapple bonus -5 for any secondary natural weapons. If the monster's grapple attack deals damage to a foe, the damage is lethal (unless the monster takes a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage) and equal to the damage rating for the natural weapon. For example, a troll grappling with a claw has a grapple bonus of +14 and deals 1d6+6 point of damage with the attack.
MeepoTheMighty said:When you grapple, you do damage according to the natural weapon used to start the grapple. For most humanoids, this would be unarmed strike damage. A creature grappling with a bite or claw would do bite or claw damage.
Prism said:The Rule of the Game article is in error here
Brother MacLaren said:When grappling, do you get iterative attacks even if you would not normally gain iterative attacks from high BAB (i.e., just using natural weapons)?
Does a Dire Bear gain multiple grapple checks per round since its BAB is +9?
SRD. Monster Types said:Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.