Monster Knowledge Check, Monster Roles? Minion or not?

[FurryFighter]

Hmm, well can we say that minions are less muscle bound than brutes? or is it another property altogther? Since it appears that a 20 str fighter, more than twice as strong as normal people, doesnt have bodybuilder bulk, just slightly bigger and more well muscled/defined.

Also, the lurker/rogue enemy may in fact be the most deadly, having a higher level and more powers, than that enemy warrior/fighter/brute standing in front of you, who's actually many levels below the lurker. But the lurker, being a rogue, would likely have less physical mass, meaning in basic appearances, that brute looks more deadly.

To say that the rogue looks more deadly, would have to come from careful study of his movements, confidence level, and capability in a fight. the latter will be discovered soon enough, and the former two would probably come from a perception check or history or whatever. and then it'd just say he moves like a veteran combatant or something. Alternatively, you could just roll the arcana, history, dungeoneering, nature, or religion checks to find hard numbers like level, name, type, keywords, powers, resistances and vulnerabilities, and so on. so why not do the latter from the start?

 

[teachamath]

Thanks all for the back up. I stated that knowledge checks were either you know it or you don't but it still made no difference. He said something about that being Gen Con? I didn't believe it so I just said whatever and haven't been back.

 

[FurryFighter]

By RAW, Monster Knowledge checks does not reveal monster roles nor if a certain monster is a minion or not. But those information are often very important for players to choose right tactics, or right power to use.

Do you DMs allow players to know those information by monster knowledge checks? If so, how much should be the DC?

DC 15: name, type, and keywords.

 

[Tony Vargas]

4e seems to work best when played 'above board.' You know what powers do to you, the DM plays monsters with knowledge of what's affecting them. It's obvious when a creature is bloodied, it's reasonably just as obvious when a creature is a minion (it's going to die in one hit, afterall).

It'd be very frustrating for a PC to blow a high-damage power on a minion, and there's not really a lot of drama or 'fun' to be gained from that specific sort of frustration.

Both the DMs who alternate campaigns in my current group are upfront about what's a minion and what isn't. No knowledge check required. So, yeah, very often, we might have no idea /what/ something is, but be quite confident it'll drop in one hit. :shrug:

 

[Shin Okada]

DC 15: name, type, and keywords.

But "minion" is a monster role, not a type.

 

[Trebor62]

For anyone interested:

Dragon #375 on DDI has a interesting article on game transparency, i.e. what the DM should tell the players. Minions being recognized as minions was one of the points discussed.

 

[Flipguarder]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume anyone who can end a combatant's participation in a battle with one blow could understand that fact by looking at said combatant.

 

[Trebor62]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume anyone who can end a combatant's participation in a battle with one blow could understand that fact by looking at said combatant.

Exactly right, your coming from the immersion roleplaying end of the spectrem. the Hero notices the dull rust knives and broken swords, poor armor, lack of confidence etc. to take in at a glance who is a minion.

The opposite extreme has the DM just telling the players who's a minion what are the monsters more obvious powers etc, which is really helpful to newbies learning the game.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree with Flipguarder. From both perspectives, the players should know about minions. Minions break the normal rules and the players have a right to know this before they take an action that effectively screws their character in an unfun way. How this is presented, immersive or metagame, is inconsequential. I do it by using differently colored counters for the minions and then either use a clear description or outright tell the players. I have far more interesting, better, and "fun" ways to "screw" the PCs than to make them waste dailies on minions.

On the other hand, my ranger PC regularly uses his thunder bow daily on minions because it's his only burst effect.

 

[Tai]

I agree with Flipguarder. From both perspectives, the players should know about minions. Minions break the normal rules and the players have a right to know this before they take an action that effectively screws their character in an unfun way. How this is presented, immersive or metagame, is inconsequential. I do it by using differently colored counters for the minions and then either use a clear description or outright tell the players. I have far more interesting, better, and "fun" ways to "screw" the PCs than to make them waste dailies on minions.

On the other hand, my ranger PC regularly uses his thunder bow daily on minions because it's his only burst effect.

In general, I agree. If, on the other hand, you wanted to have the cunning master of the thieves' guild disguise himself as a minion, then throw off his cloak and go "AHA!" Then that's another matter entirely ^^