Flipguarder
First Post
I'd also like to point out. My minions almost always get something like level X 3 hp. I don't like the whole "I hit you with a couch cushion, you fall down" thing.
Monster Knowledge Check, Monster Roles? Minion or not?
Hummmm so maybe would be helpfull to say "your minions" = "DM created weaklings". They are based on diferent concepts, not minions per se.
I actually like to use "weaklings" from time to time as well, but minions mechanic is very specific, designed to make our life as a DM easier and bring bigger numbers to encounters while keeping our "DM sub-processing brain unit" free to work on things other tham HP tracking.
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Anyway back on topic, expect your players to react properly. If you say "heck, its just a game, i will tell them", expect a lot of min-maxing when using powers, and a lot of meta-gamming talk during encounters.
If you do get annoyed when your players spends some time discussing in meta-gamming language during fights, well, dont tell them directly, keeping the information on the descriptions, and thus players will naturaly use descriptions when talking to each other.
As a player, I personaly dont bother using my daily on a minion, if that is good with the plot/situation. Actually I have used Shield bash and Comeback Strike many somethimes on minions and never regreted. The sceenes were well described and the action kept comming.
Personal opinion here, not oficcial ruling.
Regards!
Infiniti2000
First Post
The problem with using descriptions and other in-game clues to minions is that they're just not appropriate. Minion is a pure game mechanic, nothing more. As pointed out above, it's not even a normal "weak" monster, it completely breaks the rules. Forcing the players to use in-game actions to determine the existence of a completely artificial game mechanic on an enemy is simply wrong. Even then, as noted previously, some DM's will mix the non-minions and minions together, not only causing the PCs to wastes actions and resources to figure things out, but then to possibly waste dailies and the like on the very thing they thought they were trying to avoid. Congratulations, you "beat" the players.
You act as if all players WANT to automatically know this stuff.
Sure, the players that want to "beat" the DM will want to know it.
But Minions is not a game mechanic used to just allow PCs to beat up foes easily. Minions is a game mechanic that allows larger encounters and lets the PCs be heroes.
The PCs are heroes just as much if they use an At Will power, or a Daily power. If they hit, they kill the minion. If they miss, they don't. But knowing the best power for every foe, where's the fun in that?
The explanation that people often pull out is that the minions have "rusty daggers" or "look weaker" or whatever. Why? Why can't a leader looking foe not really be a leader, but a wimp? Lot's of charisma, but couldn't stop an attack if his life depended on it. Wonderful looking clothes, but so klutzy he practically falls on a PC's sword.
I think obvious game elements should be pointed out. For example, it's Hobgoblins. They have bows. Some common knowledge that some of them can knock foes down in combat. In large groups, they protect each other.
Knowing the exact capabilities of a given specific foe (i.e. the exact game mechanics involved), no. He is a spell caster of some type. Sure. He can Daze you once per encounter. No.
A lot of the mystery has already been bleeded out of the game system. If I wanted to play chess where I know every piece's capabilities, I'd play chess. Or, Monopoly.
It used to be that the DM had mysteries behind his game screen. Problems to solve, challenges to overcome. How challenging is for the players it to overcome minions (or even the non-minions) when every minion has MINION stamped on his forehead for the players?
My take is that roles are specifically not listed as information players acquire with monster checks, so they don't get that info. And they get generalized information for the DCs they make, not specific game mechanics.
That's you prerogative, but personally I prefer to think of "minion" as representing morale in addition to physical frailty. Maybe they don't always *die* in one hit. Sometimes, they become otherwise incapacitated, or run away.
I am glad to find your site - now I know what a good one looks like.
Very good topic to share with us. Great info.
Infiniti2000
First Post
I'd think so, yes. But, hey there's always someone out there who's different.
Whoa, hey, easy on the exaggeration and straw men. I never said anything about revealing "every piece's capabilities." I also think you're overemphasizing the importance of a minion. In fact, letting players know which ones are minions emphasizes your point and let "the PCs be heroes." The only purpose for hiding minions is the opposite of that. Imagine the PC down to 2 hit points and no healing surges decides to use his last remaining daily to try and take out the BBEG so he doesn't go out alone. Only, which one is it? There are five bad guys and they are indistinguishable. The PC gets a 20% chance to choose correctly else the DM "wins!"
PS. Of course the PCs want to beat the DM! They're the heroes! You even said it yourself.
Saying "These are minions, you don't really need to worry about them and they're easy targets for you to get your THP and other powers that trigger when you drop an enemy." is wrong . Where's the fun in that fight?
Minions aren't really supposed to be challenging - they're basically there to get in the way, and to give the controllers something to play with. If you don't want them being cut down like wheat, make them low level brutes instead... Although you're in for a book-keeping nightmare ^^;;
